Imagine the show didn't get the axe and Joss was allowed to do more with the story after the Season 2 finale. What would have happened? What would be the kind of things you would have liked to have happened to the show and the characters?
Dollhouse post-Season 2
- Thread starter Joe Washington
- Start date
There aren't to be any comic books or web shows or movies on Dollhouse. Whedon said so himself.
But Fox owns Dollhouse, right? In that case it's their decision, not Whedon's.
Do we know this to be true? I'm under the assumption that it's not.
Dollhouse was actually created as part of Eliza Dushku's development deal with FOX. It's a co-production of 20th Century Fox Television, Dushku's Boston Diva Productions, and Whedon's Mutant Enemy Productions (grrr, argh). I'm pretty sure FOX holds the copyright. Maybe someone who has the DVDs could check them for copyright information?
Fox owns distribution rights on the current seasons and what not, but further tales, comics and what not, I'd imagine would work out as the Firefly/Angel/Buffy ones do, what Joss wants for those, Joss gets. That is, the current episodes are likely copyrighted to FOX, but Joss and Eliza probably have a work in somewhere that they'd be able to continue the concept in another medium if they had so wished to (like the previous mentions). Considering it was canceled due to low ratings though, I doubt it'll be to much of an issue. Either way, I'll check the DVDs and see what the end credits and the like say (or someone else can, either way).
As for what would happen, likely what we saw in 12/13 would have been expanded for seasons three four and five (11 was made prior to, and during episode 11), but from what I hear, season two was 'telescoped' to contain the future season plans as well. In any case, likely the story would have shown Alpha's turn to being good, the rise of the tech (maybe a resurgence in Rossum or something). Considering that Pryia and Anthony were no longer actives (Sierra and Victor), likely the path to them being a couple, having issues and a son would have been seen, and the discovery somewhere they can upload imprints by using a flashdrive. Topher's decent would have been seen, etc...
I guess that's obvious...
As for what would happen, likely what we saw in 12/13 would have been expanded for seasons three four and five (11 was made prior to, and during episode 11), but from what I hear, season two was 'telescoped' to contain the future season plans as well. In any case, likely the story would have shown Alpha's turn to being good, the rise of the tech (maybe a resurgence in Rossum or something). Considering that Pryia and Anthony were no longer actives (Sierra and Victor), likely the path to them being a couple, having issues and a son would have been seen, and the discovery somewhere they can upload imprints by using a flashdrive. Topher's decent would have been seen, etc...
I guess that's obvious...
I don't know. I personally had a very hard time getting into the show. It just didn't have that spark Joss' other shows had.
I did enjoy the finale, however, and would have liked seeing more of a post-apocalyptic type show in that style. Does anybody know if that is where the show was headed for season 3? Or was that a special case of wrapping up the intended plot in one episode because the show was canceled?
I think the post-apocalyptic idea only came along when they decided to do "Epitaph One" as a bonus episode for the DVD. They had to shoot it cheaply and simultaneously with a regular episode, so it needed a different cast, and Whedon decided to peek ten years ahead and extrapolate the premise to its logical outcome. Once that episode was made, though, it colored everything that followed. And once it became evident that this season would almost certainly be the last, Whedon decided to revisit that post-apocalyptic setting for the finale, since he knew he was unlikely to get the chance again. Certainly the storytelling for most of the season was accelerated compared to how it would've gone if they'd had a realistic expectation of a longer run.
No show is really completely planned out in advance. There are always new discoveries and possibilities turning up along the way, and those refine the path it takes. Generally a long-term plan for a series isn't a beat-by-beat schedule, but a set of loose ideas for character and arc developments, with the specifics firming up along the way and the details changing in response to new developments and inspirations.
No show is really completely planned out in advance. There are always new discoveries and possibilities turning up along the way, and those refine the path it takes. Generally a long-term plan for a series isn't a beat-by-beat schedule, but a set of loose ideas for character and arc developments, with the specifics firming up along the way and the details changing in response to new developments and inspirations.
I've read someone speculate that Whedon's unwillingness to do any kind of a spinoff for Dollhouse is proof (in the reviewer's opinion) that his heart really wasn't into this series.
Which is pretty much what he did, he made a loose idea, something to try and provide direction, and not set in stone (as he well knew that in television, especially in his experiences with FOX, his plans are never in stone). Likely, his 'plans' for each season as written (according to series star Eliza Dushku) was simply a half a dozen or so points he wanted to see explored/happen and what needed to lead up (if anything) for the next season. Other then that, I think they somewhat played it by ear.
I've heard something similar, but his sister-in-law (judging by her tweets) seemed pretty floored by those comments (She was one of the writers and played Kilo). Joss' comments himself, also seem to suggest otherwise, and that while he wasn't planing on getting back into TV anytime soon (can't blame him, really), and that he did somewhat start this as a favor to Eliza (as Christoper mentioned earlier, she had a development deal with FOX), he was into the series, enjoyed working with the people that he did so, and was upset of the cancellation (I don't know if he was serious or not, bit I recall him referencing to bing drinking upon finding out the show was canceled). Likely, not continuing is the result of having already done so for Angel, Buffy, and Firefly/Serenity while (from what I hear) preparing for a second installment to Dr. Horrible (yay), and the very premise of Dollhouse, the way the ran the series and ended it, it was effectively wrapped up, there would be no real reason to do it, except to serve as back story and to put the name out there in another medium.
This is likely one of the core reasons, further 'tales' would simply be back story, while it'd certainly be interesting, I can see the point that there is no reason to. As I mentioned, unlike Buffy, or Angel (which for the latter, was intended to have more seasons) and Firefly/Serenity (which obviously had more intended for it), the series ended in a way that anything else would be filler back story. I mean, sure, there is like a nine, ten year gap, but the Epitaphs filled in enough to give you an idea. Alpha became a good person, Pryia and Anthony had a kid together Echo became a real girl, pretty much the end result of things to see, were seen.
Not...that it doesn't disappoint he wont make some comics or anything for Dollhouse.
That doesn't make any sense, either in this specific case or on general principles. Not every story has to go on forever. Different stories work at different lengths. Some stories are open-ended, others have definite conclusions. It's nonsensical to suggest that there's some correlation between the duration of a story and the commitment of its creator.
If anything, the fact that Whedon managed to tell this story so completely and richly in just 26 episodes is evidence that he did pour his heart into it, that he didn't hold anything back. Despite the show's growing pains, Whedon managed to tell a remarkably rich, full-bodied work of science fiction and brought it to a satisfactory resolution. That's not the work of someone whose heart isn't in it.
The whole show was about Echo becoming a person and bringing down Rossum, the finale did that.
Really the only thing that could be shown would be the little details of how Alpha turned good, I think the Paul imprint sort of drove him towards it. It was able to control him for a limited time at first. The rest was either told to use or hinted at.
Really the only thing that could be shown would be the little details of how Alpha turned good, I think the Paul imprint sort of drove him towards it. It was able to control him for a limited time at first. The rest was either told to use or hinted at.
Actually the show ended up being about something bigger than that, how the technology of brain reprogramming transformed society. In the end, it wasn't really about Rossum. The heroes defeated Rossum in the penultimate episode -- but the tech got out anyway, because that's how technology works: it happens when the groundwork has been laid, so if one entity is stopped from developing it, someone else will. Indeed, Boyd's plan was to use Rossum's resources to protect himself and his chosen few against the inevitable proliferation of the tech by getting it first and developing countermeasures to it. Ultimately, Rossum wasn't the source of the evil, just one misguided attempt to cope with the inevitable tide. The whole series was essentially about people making moral compromises and doing bad things because they believed it was in the greater good.
And it wasn't ultimately about Echo either, not only. If you think about it, she didn't really play a major role in the finale. Her main role was gathering together the people who did save the world. It started out being about Echo, and her development was a key throughline, but it became much more of an ensemble piece.
And it wasn't ultimately about Echo either, not only. If you think about it, she didn't really play a major role in the finale. Her main role was gathering together the people who did save the world. It started out being about Echo, and her development was a key throughline, but it became much more of an ensemble piece.
Likely, that was Echo's role the entire time, to gather the people that helped to fight the war, and ultimately, save the planet from the tech. I also very much doubt that Rossum was 'defeated' the mere fact the corporate heads had numerous backup wedges figure into this, likely they let things cool down and subtly began pulling at the strings of things. Daniel Perrin, for instance, was likely to still become president by 2012 and make Rossum's actions legal, and a wide sort of other things. I really would have to wonder it being other wise, considering what we saw in the actual final episode, the war still being against Rossum/the tech.
Also, her reason for being 'immune' is dubious at best, when you consider Alpha, Sierra and Victor (the latter two having chemistry no matter what the imprints are), at least as far as her being seemingly the 'only' one.
This is what would have been answered in the seasons we didn't get ><
Also, her reason for being 'immune' is dubious at best, when you consider Alpha, Sierra and Victor (the latter two having chemistry no matter what the imprints are), at least as far as her being seemingly the 'only' one.
This is what would have been answered in the seasons we didn't get ><
Thank god.
No, it wasn't. When they dealt with Harding and Ambrose in the early scenes, Harding said that the chaos had happened because the tech had gotten out of Rossum's control. Rossum didn't destroy the world. They were just trying to survive the deluge. They were just maintaining a small enclave in the former Tuscon, living as feudal lords in their own tiny territory, a bastion against the global chaos they had no control over.
Didn't you hear Boyd's speech in the penultimate episode? He knew the tech could not be controlled by any one corporation, because that's simply not how progress works. When the groundwork is laid for a new technology, it's going to get out, no matter what anyone does. That's why Boyd concluded that there was no hope of preventing the tech from getting out, and that the only way to save the people he cared about was to embrace the tech and get ahead of the curve so that he and his privileged few could survive the inescapable chaos. He knew it was impossible to stop the tide, so the only option was to try to surf it.
That was the whole point of the finale of the penultimate episode. The heroes defeated Rossum, destroyed the knowledge in Rossum's mainframe, and they believed they'd saved the world by doing so. Cut to ten years later, and the world is a post-apocalyptic ruin, because the assumption that you can stop progress by stopping one corporation is folly of the highest order. Ultimately, Rossum was not the real enemy, because Rossum was not in control of the tech. Once it went viral, nobody was in control. That was the whole point.
I mean, really, in this age when movies and TV shows and comic books can be pirated and illegally downloaded by anyone with an Internet connection, do you really believe it's possible for a single corporation to maintain absolute control over its intellectual property? The thoughtpocalypse didn't happen because Rossum caused it, it happened because Rossum couldn't prevent it. Because once the tech got out into the wild and could be used by any government or terrorist or hacker or robocaller, the result was chaos. There's no way Rossum or any other corporation could've profited from the thoughtpocalypse; after all, a corporation needs profits to survive, and thus requires an intact and functioning social and economic infrastructure. So they wouldn't have caused this or let it happen if they'd had any control over the situation. There would've been no profit in it.
This is what's so brilliant about Dollhouse. It's not a simplistic heroes-vs.-villains narrative. There's no ultimate enemy here, just as there are no true heroes here. It's a show about morally ambiguous, compromised people making choices that seem like a good idea at the time, or at least like the most palatable of a set of undesirable options. It's a show where nobody's ever really in control of their lives. It may seem at first like the Dolls are an exceptional case, that they lack the control others have, but the more the show goes on, the more you discover that even the people in charge of the slaves are themselves trapped and out of control. And in keeping with that theme, once we discover who the true mastermind of Rossum is, we then discover that even he's not truly in control, that all his "evil" schemes have actually been a desperate, if profoundly Macchiavellian, attempt to protect the people he cares about from a catastrophe that he can't see any way to prevent. Ultimately nobody in the show is in control of their lives; they're all just trying to cope however they can.
Probably everyone had some ability to retain their core nature, since you can't undo the brain's hardwiring by rewriting its memories. Scientifically speaking, self is as much a physical thing as a mental thing, so you can never completely change who someone is. What made Echo distinct was her ability to resist wipes and retain memory, something more than just the basic fixed substrate of her nature. At first it was barely more than the endurance of self that the other Actives showed, but the more her potential was developed, the more memory she was able to retain until she became uniquely able to resist being wiped altogether. And that was what Boyd was trying to achieve, a serum for resisting wipes, because he knew remote-wiping tech would get out and destroy civilization, and he needed a way to make himself and his loved ones and cronies immune so they could survive.
I'm curious to who actually wiped the world. Rossum seemed to be the first to develop the tech, but other groups (NSA for one) knew about it. I wonder if Echo and the Doll Gang made some deal with one of Rossum's rivals and they were the ones who wiped everyone.
No one person or group did. That's the whole point. The tech went viral. Every government or terrorist group that wanted to wipe a city could do it with robocalls. Every hacker who wanted to hack brains as well as computers now had the means to do it. You want to get back at your ex, you wipe her mind, or you copy it and put her in the body of an 80-year-old man. You want the unattainable girl, you wipe her and reprogram her into something more pliable, or just make her a dumbshow and have your way with her. What we saw in the "Epitaph" episodes was not the result of a single organized agency; it was global chaos, multiple groups with multiple agendas sending out multiple competing and overlapping signals until it degenerated into total anarchy, to the point where people were getting randomly wiped just because they stood next to the wrong radio. Humanity collectively destroyed itself.
I had forgotten about those bits of the tech getting out of their control...shit. I think I was reasonably, close though, that they weren't 'destroyed' but certainly, despite getting out of their control, Harding and Ambrose seem to very much enjoy their new found status. I think you're right though, about how the tech simply went viral and people started to use it to fight wars or whatever else.
Interesting thoughts about hard wiring, Paul Ballard made this observation in...I think it was "Omega" about how you can't truly change a person's 'soul' the essence of who he/she/they were.
Interesting thoughts about hard wiring, Paul Ballard made this observation in...I think it was "Omega" about how you can't truly change a person's 'soul' the essence of who he/she/they were.
