From a thread on a ds9 marathon on Reddit:
Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophets)
- Thread starter hxclespaulplayer
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Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The Prime Directive has a dual meaning in Trek. One is prohibiting the interference with non-warp capable species. The other is not interfering with the internal affairs of another race.
So technically the Prophet/Paigh Wraith conflict would be a civil war and strictly an internal affair. Though by season 7, Sisko was pretty much putting higher priority on his role as Emissary over his role as a Starfleet officer, so even if anyone called him on it, I doubt he'd not have gotten involved.
The Prime Directive has a dual meaning in Trek. One is prohibiting the interference with non-warp capable species. The other is not interfering with the internal affairs of another race.
So technically the Prophet/Paigh Wraith conflict would be a civil war and strictly an internal affair. Though by season 7, Sisko was pretty much putting higher priority on his role as Emissary over his role as a Starfleet officer, so even if anyone called him on it, I doubt he'd not have gotten involved.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
To be fair, "warp capable" has never been a criterion in the application of the Prime Directive. That's pure fanfic.
I guess some episode writers might believe that warp capacity matters, but no episode or movie has actually featured a reference to warp capacity mattering. TNG "First Contact" had contact coincide with the launch of a planet's first warp experiment, but other episodes featured contact with species that did not have warp drive.
The "internal matters" aspect is certainly part of the PD, though. DS9 itself establishes in "The Circle" that it's the PD specifically that stops Starfleet from interfering with the civil war on Bajor, at least until the complicity of aliens (that is, Cardassians) is verified.
Whether a conflict involving Bajorans, Prophets and Pah Wraiths would involve sufficiently many "alien parties" to disqualify it from PD protection is a matter of interpretation. The tech levels of those parties should not enter the equation, though.
Timo Saloniemi
To be fair, "warp capable" has never been a criterion in the application of the Prime Directive. That's pure fanfic.
I guess some episode writers might believe that warp capacity matters, but no episode or movie has actually featured a reference to warp capacity mattering. TNG "First Contact" had contact coincide with the launch of a planet's first warp experiment, but other episodes featured contact with species that did not have warp drive.
The "internal matters" aspect is certainly part of the PD, though. DS9 itself establishes in "The Circle" that it's the PD specifically that stops Starfleet from interfering with the civil war on Bajor, at least until the complicity of aliens (that is, Cardassians) is verified.
Whether a conflict involving Bajorans, Prophets and Pah Wraiths would involve sufficiently many "alien parties" to disqualify it from PD protection is a matter of interpretation. The tech levels of those parties should not enter the equation, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
Voyager was getting it's ass kicked. The Prime Directive still applied.
Voyager was getting it's ass kicked. The Prime Directive still applied.
Warp capable threshold... Tick!
The warp threshold doesn't rescind the Prime Directive, it just loosens it a little, like with the barriers to drinking booze and a persons age all around the world.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The Prophet took over Sisko's mother on Earth before he was born meaning they were capable of interstellar travel.
The Prophets also constructed the wormhole which allows travel 70,000 light years across the galaxy. It may not be warp drive but if you can make wormholes then you wouldn't need it.
Getting involved in the Prophets civil war would have been prohibited in the same way Picard refused to get involved in the Klingon civil war.
The Prophet took over Sisko's mother on Earth before he was born meaning they were capable of interstellar travel.
The Prophets also constructed the wormhole which allows travel 70,000 light years across the galaxy. It may not be warp drive but if you can make wormholes then you wouldn't need it.
Getting involved in the Prophets civil war would have been prohibited in the same way Picard refused to get involved in the Klingon civil war.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The 'warp capable' threshold is the point at which the Federation introduces itself and says hi, not the point at which the prime directive stops applying.
Meeting the Prophets was not a violation of the prime directive. Besides the fact that the Prophets were already directly involved in their relationship with the Bajorans, and Sisko's goal was to meet and say hi, not to influence them. If the Prophets didn't want to talk to Sisko they wouldn't have.
The 'warp capable' threshold is the point at which the Federation introduces itself and says hi, not the point at which the prime directive stops applying.
Meeting the Prophets was not a violation of the prime directive. Besides the fact that the Prophets were already directly involved in their relationship with the Bajorans, and Sisko's goal was to meet and say hi, not to influence them. If the Prophets didn't want to talk to Sisko they wouldn't have.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The Prime Directive protects the Federation from charges of interference in a less developed species. By definition, this can't apply to a species which is MORE advanced than the Federation.
The Prime Directive protects the Federation from charges of interference in a less developed species. By definition, this can't apply to a species which is MORE advanced than the Federation.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
How do you define "more" and "less" advanced?
Surely any species susceptible to influence is subordinate somehow now matter how powerful their ships are.
How do you define "more" and "less" advanced?
Surely any species susceptible to influence is subordinate somehow now matter how powerful their ships are.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
Then I guess it's the Prophets that broke the Prime Directive.
Asking them to cast wrath of god on the Dominion fleet is textbook influencing.
Then I guess it's the Prophets that broke the Prime Directive.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
It's not their prime directive.
It's a courtesy the Federation offers to all other races that it would be a delight if all other races extended in return to the Federation, but it's not out right expected or demanded.
It's not their prime directive.
It's a courtesy the Federation offers to all other races that it would be a delight if all other races extended in return to the Federation, but it's not out right expected or demanded.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
Put it this way: If another organization or species with technology more advanced than the Federation, decided to share it with them, then the Federation could legally accept it. There is no part of the Prime Directive which forbids the Federation from *accepting* help; it just lays out the circumstances under which it can't *give* help.
Put it this way: If another organization or species with technology more advanced than the Federation, decided to share it with them, then the Federation could legally accept it. There is no part of the Prime Directive which forbids the Federation from *accepting* help; it just lays out the circumstances under which it can't *give* help.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
TNG The Game.
"Trade" with unknown species is dangerous. Anything can be a Trojan, or unwittingly dangerous like in DS9 Rivals when Quark massreplicated a device he misunderstood that was dangerously manipulating reality.
It's not like the Federation would legally and officially buy grain from an unknown species after the last time they bought poisoned grain from assholes?
Definition of "Federation".
The Prime Directive is about Starfleet, not bog standard Federation citizens.
But still whatever Civil Service runs the Federation in the name of the Federation Council, a massive army of diplomats, governers ambassadors, overseerers, middlemen and minions... Who may not in anyway be bound by Starfleet regulations, would still be bound to have asshole insurance, which is exactly what will stop the Federaion et all from using any "gifts" from a new aquaintance before thoroughly testing to see if these gifts are trick or treat.
There's an approved list.
If you wander off the approved list, your genitals will fall off and you'll shit your brain out of the hole where your balls used to swing from.
TNG The Game.
"Trade" with unknown species is dangerous. Anything can be a Trojan, or unwittingly dangerous like in DS9 Rivals when Quark massreplicated a device he misunderstood that was dangerously manipulating reality.
It's not like the Federation would legally and officially buy grain from an unknown species after the last time they bought poisoned grain from assholes?
Definition of "Federation".
The Prime Directive is about Starfleet, not bog standard Federation citizens.
But still whatever Civil Service runs the Federation in the name of the Federation Council, a massive army of diplomats, governers ambassadors, overseerers, middlemen and minions... Who may not in anyway be bound by Starfleet regulations, would still be bound to have asshole insurance, which is exactly what will stop the Federaion et all from using any "gifts" from a new aquaintance before thoroughly testing to see if these gifts are trick or treat.
There's an approved list.
If you wander off the approved list, your genitals will fall off and you'll shit your brain out of the hole where your balls used to swing from.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
Picard only got involved in the Klingon Civil War because the Romulans did.
Picard only got involved in the Klingon Civil War because the Romulans did.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
And even then, he only stopped the Romulans from butting in.
Isn't it amazing how few seconds it took for the Duras supplylines to fail?
They must have sucked so hard.
And even then, he only stopped the Romulans from butting in.
Isn't it amazing how few seconds it took for the Duras supplylines to fail?
They must have sucked so hard.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The Duras family sucked at everything.
The Duras family sucked at everything.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The Prime Directive is about non-interference with another group's internal development, regardless of tech level. The pre-warp thing is just a sub-set of that rule, because pre-warp any interaction would be interfering with internal development (aside from the odd [sometimes accidental] abduction, apparently).
The Sisko was already a part of the Prophet's internal society, from before he was even conceived, so anything he did would not violate the PD (although he didn't find that out until late in the show).
The Prime Directive is about non-interference with another group's internal development, regardless of tech level. The pre-warp thing is just a sub-set of that rule, because pre-warp any interaction would be interfering with internal development (aside from the odd [sometimes accidental] abduction, apparently).
The Sisko was already a part of the Prophet's internal society, from before he was even conceived, so anything he did would not violate the PD (although he didn't find that out until late in the show).
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The application of the Prime directive does not apply to the Prophets, not only because they are more advanced and became de facto allies to the federation, and Sisko is essentially half Profit himself, but because the Pah Wraiths had allied essentially themselves,with the Dominion through Dukhat, which the federation was at war with. Had no action been taken by Sisko, the Pah Wraiths could have defeated the Prophets, and assisted with the subjugation of the Alpha Quadrant by the Dominion.
The application of the Prime directive does not apply to the Prophets, not only because they are more advanced and became de facto allies to the federation, and Sisko is essentially half Profit himself, but because the Pah Wraiths had allied essentially themselves,with the Dominion through Dukhat, which the federation was at war with. Had no action been taken by Sisko, the Pah Wraiths could have defeated the Prophets, and assisted with the subjugation of the Alpha Quadrant by the Dominion.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
The prophets are shitty allies.
They could win this war for either side in about 5 seconds.
They're either half assed or half interested.
Which means they're sanctimonious dicks.
Which means you shouldn't trust their help.
The prophets are shitty allies.
They could win this war for either side in about 5 seconds.
They're either half assed or half interested.
Which means they're sanctimonious dicks.
Which means you shouldn't trust their help.
Re: Does the prime directive apply with MORE advanced species? (prophe
When their methods include forcibly mind controlling a woman to force him to seduce someone to conceive a child, who will be your pawn willing or not, then just leaving them to deal with it, they're morally questionable at best. That's like rape twice over.
When their methods include forcibly mind controlling a woman to force him to seduce someone to conceive a child, who will be your pawn willing or not, then just leaving them to deal with it, they're morally questionable at best. That's like rape twice over.
