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Does the President know about Section 31

And if the executive is just sitting on it's hands while a powerful enemy advances and maneuvers it's assets into position, what then?

"Oh, we all should wait for the executive to act (someday)."


And the actions seen in the episode In The Pale Moonllight, would you describe the DS9 senior officers (and Garak) as "a gang of murderers and terrorists?"
Well Garak is a murderer in that TPM episode. Sisko is shielded by culpable deniability and whilst troubled he retrospectively sanctions it. Sisko isn't legally exposed to the murder charge (I don't think) he's just morally troubled by it. But that is murder and unless you go by "the end justifies the means" then its unacceptable behaviour. But maybe the end does justify the means? And Garak's acts warrants absolution because it was a pivotal event preventing the AQ from falling into a terrible tyranny. If Garak was a Federation citizen he would require a pardon though because murder is murder. It wasn't a personal act of self defence and that it had political repercussions isn't a defence that would be recognised.

If Federation institutions have failed to discharge their role in defending Federation territory then it does (morally) fall upon Federation citizens to pick up that mantle as a last line of defence. If Section 31 lead the way on that they would be still legally a terroristic organisation seen through a formal prism (they would require a pardon) but they would be morally in the right to do so.
 
Actually it would make a certain amount of sense that the Federation President was in total control of S31, and they being a paranoid dirty trick organization they spy on their own boss.

As for Sloan, as a field agent/flunky he probably doesn't know who his boss really is, and is under the false impression that S31 is separate from the Federation's governance. His head full of (mostly) disinformation in case of capture.

This would likely be exactly the sort of model such an organisation would use. Why would they sow such a level of disinformation externally but have the one character we see on screen (at that point) totally informed?

Even the most legitimate intelligence agencies compartmentalise their information bases, with their peers often operating like terrorist cells, so why on earth would Sloan be so well informed as to let us take his perspective as gospel?

There is no evidence whatsoever that Section 31 answers to the Federation President; the canon is very clear that they answer to no one but themselves. Furthermore, "Extreme Measures" establishes very clearly that Sloan is very high up within Section 31, having access to all sorts of Section 31 operations, including their deployments on Qo'noS and their spy in former President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet.

I also picture it as a 'black' organization under the CIA-equivalent umbrella.
If it's not sanctioned by the government then its just a criminal organization.

Exactly.

Because anyone or thing not sanctioned by a government is automatically a criminal organization?

No, but any organization that puts itself above the law and unaccountable to the democratic state, is.

Section 31 is to Starfleet as Hydra is to SHIELD.

My usual take on S31 is that it's essentially a group of Federation private citizens who on occasion take matters (but not the law) into their own hands.

Your take is flatly contradicted by the canon.

If you usurp the jurisdiction of the executive you are a criminal organisation. Powers of life and death are solely within the gift of the executive to delegate. If S31 hasn't this authorisation, they are formally a gang of murderers and terrorists.

This.

I don't buy the idea that Section 31 isn't sanctioned by the Federation in some way. They are too well connected and have access to too much equipment to be what people seem to think they are.

Having high-powered agents loyal to your criminal conspiracy helps.

Comparison: When United States Marine Corps Colonel Oliver North and his associates in the Reagan administration were conspiring to sell arms to the Iranians in order to fund the Contras in Nicaragua, were they acting as "the government?" Or were they acting as a criminal conspiracy within the government, utilizing governmental resources illegally?

Part of out problem with how we perceive Section 31 is that almost all out interaction with the organization in Deep Space Nine are via Bashir, who is a Lieutenant and a Doctor. Both of which are not generally cleared for information on top secret matters nor information on the more hidden parts of Starfleet Intelligence. That is our point of view entry for Section 31 and Sloan never really answers Bashir's questions. Even if it would benefit Sloan into getting Bashir's aid, I doubt he'd give up what section of the government they operate out of simply because that is need to know and Bashir, who is clearly against the concept of there being a Section 31, doesn't need to know.

Look at "Inquisition" agent. Sloan's goal is to persuade Bashir to join Section 31. Bashir refuses to join not so much because he is against the idea of espionage and black ops, as because he is against the idea of an organization that puts itself above the law and makes itself unaccountable to the democratic state. If Section 31 were actually a legitimate part of the Federation government, it would be irrational for Sloan not to disclose this to Bashir, because doing so would allow him to achieve his objective.

And the actions seen in the episode In The Pale Moonllight, would you describe the DS9 senior officers (and Garak) as "a gang of murderers and terrorists?"

No. But there is a key difference: Sisko reports his and Garak's actions to his superiors in the Federation Starfleet. Now, what they did was a violation of both Federation, Bajoran, and interstellar law. But the simple fact remains that whatever else you might say about them, Sisko makes himself and Garak accountable to the democratic state in the person of his superiors at Starfleet.

In terms of a basic concept it is comparable, it's individuals stepping forward and doing something without first seeking permission.

There is a huge difference between doing something to protect yourself without "seeking permission," and creating an organization that regards itself and its members as above the law at all times and unaccountable to the democratic state.

They are protecting their families (Sloan spoke of his family), protecting their community, and protecting the Federation as a whole.

Interestingly, out of six Section 31 operations we have seen them undertake canonically, exactly one operation actually served to protect the Federation in a competent manner.

The first time we see a Section 31 operation (going by release dates of episodes/films), we see Section 31 abduct and torture Julian Bashir in 2374 in order to "test" him for loyalty, to persuade him to join Section 31. They fail to do so. ("Inquisition")

The second time we see a Section 31 operation in 2375 ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"), they conspire with Romulan Tal Shiar Chair Koval to have Romulan Senator Cretek framed for treason and executed, and Koval placed on the powerful Continuing Committee, nominally because Koval is loyal to Section 31 and Cretek as a Romulan patriot might one day adopt an anti-Federation political stance. Setting aside the absurdity of the idea that the Chair of the Tal Shiar could be trusted to be loyal to Section 31, the operation is rendered moot when the entire Romulan Senate is assassinated just four years later by Shinzon of Remus, who seizes the Romulan government. Their purported agent Koval is clearly dead.

The third Section 31 operation we see is their attempt to exterminate the Founders of the Dominion by use of a morphogenic virus, which they deployed in 2372; this was established in the Final Chapters arc, particularly "Extreme Measures." This operation fails, thanks to Dr. Bashir being able to fish the cure out of the mind of Section 31 agent Sloan. Furthermore, this operation had the effect of producing the opposite result from what Section 31 intended even before it was thwarted; the Founders' existential malaise convinced them to attempt to exterminate the Cardassian species and to fight to hold Cardassia from the Allies in a pyrrhic victory that would have cost many millions, if not billions, of sentient lives. Fortunately, the Founders relented upon being given a curse for the virus. Had the cure not been offered, God only knows how much longer the war would have dragged on and if the Cardassian species would have survived.

The fourth Section 31 operation we see ("Divergence/Affliction"), in 2154, sees Section 31 allow the Klingon Defense Force to abduct the Denobulan national Phlox from Earth so that he can be coerced into developing a treatment for the Klingon Augment virus that is spreading throughout the empire. Their actions nearly result in the destruction of United Earth's two most important starships, Enterprise NX-02 and Columbia NX-02, and do result in widespread anger and resentment against Earth for the Augment virus that creates the QuchHa' (ridgeless Klingons). Oddly enough, they didn't think to simply request Phlox intervene consensually.

The fifth Section 31 operation we see later that same year ("Terra Prime") has them giving key info to the crew of Enterprise NX-01 in order to transport a landing party to the hijacked verteron array on Mars and defeat the Human supremacist terrorist organization known as Terra Prime. This operation succeeds in its objectives.

The sixth Section 31 operation we have seen featured in 2159 of the Kelvin Timeline. In that year, it was revealed that Section 31 had undertaken a complex operation to revive Khan Noonien Sighn and the exiled Augments he led, in order to provoke the Klingon Empire into launching a war against the Federation; the head of Section 31, Alexander Marcus, who had become head of Starfleet Command, would then lead the Federation in war against the Klingons. They had also concealed a shipyards facility from the rest of the Federation and built a powerful starship called the Vengeance. Their plan failed when Marcus proved unable to control Khan and to prevent Captain Kirk from uncovering the true nature of his plan to incite a war. It resulted in the exposure and hijacking of the Vengeance by Khan, Marcus's death, the near-destruction of the USS Enterprise, and the destruction of both the Vengeance and most of downtown San Francisco when it crashed into the city. God only knows how many thousands of innocent civilians Section 31 got killed -- or how many billions more they would have killed in their Federation/Klingon war.

Of six operations, exactly one actually served to protect the Federation and was handled competently. The rest of them failed to achieve their objectives -- and would have made the Federation vastly weaker and less safe if they hadn't been thwarted by officers of the legitimate Starfleet.
 
There is no evidence whatsoever that Section 31 answers to the Federation President; the canon is very clear that they answer to no one but themselves. Furthermore, "Extreme Measures" establishes very clearly that Sloan is very high up within Section 31, having access to all sorts of Section 31 operations, including their deployments on Qo'noS and their spy in former President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet.

I didn't say they do, merely pointed out Sloan likely wouldn't know.
 
There is no evidence whatsoever that Section 31 answers to the Federation President
It's never made clear who heads S31.

And I did point out the historical fact that President Roosevelt had a extra-government intelligence organization that answered directly to him.
Section 31 is to Starfleet as Hydra is to SHIELD.
If you want to go to the comics for a comparison, S31 is more as The Justice League (without the super-natural abilities of course).

My usual take on S31 is that it's essentially a group of Federation private citizens who on occasion take matters (but not the law) into their own hands.
Your take is flatly contradicted by the canon.
What part?

That they are private citizens?
They are from within the Federation?
They take matters into their own hands?
They aren't taking the law into their own hands?

I put "extralegal" into Google and found this ...

A vigilante is someone who gets together with a group of like-minded people to protect their property or local community. This type of action is generally taken when it is felt that the police are not providing sufficient protection and people need to make a stand to protect themselves and their property.

While obviously operating on a large scale, that sounds like S31.
 
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The part where they are established by section 31 of the Starfleet Charter. They're not vigilantes, they're government sponsored black ops. They just operate in secrecy, outside of the set chain of command, autonomous from all political oversight to allowaximum deniability and secrecy.
 
NONE of which a legitimate governmental organization is ever entitled to do.

Legitimate government organizations owned slaves. Ran pograms. Instituted castes. Done all sorts of horribly reprehensible shit. Times change. Morals change. Laws change.

What determines the legitimacy of government organizations? The organizations charter. What establishes Section 31? Section 31 of the charter, as ratified by the elected government. Your own feelings regarding government and military restrictions are irrelevant to this fictional organizations legitimacy in this fictional universe as established by a fictional charter.

Besides, when it comes to horrifying Federation actions and policies, Section 31 is pretty much par for the course. Hell, our own modern, freedom loving western government organizations have done things just as bad, if not worse, than section 31.
 
What determines the legitimacy of government organizations?

Common sense. Transparency. Accountability. None of which Section 31 has.

The organizations charter. What establishes Section 31? Section 31 of the charter, as ratified by the elected government.

Even if you believe that the charter for the Earth Starfleet should be binding upon the Federation Starfleet (they are not the same organization) - which I don't - you'll notice that the actual TEXT of the passage establishing Section 31, only gives vague authorization for bending the rules in times of extraordinary threats. Section 31 as we have seen it, goes FAR beyond that.
 
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Common sense. Transparency. Accountability. None of which Section 31 has.

The CIA sure was transparent when they ran all those experiments on their own citizens. Guess that makes the entire US government illegitimate.

Your own moral interpretations doesn't change the fact that Section 31 is tacitly acknowledged as legitimate multiple times in the franchise, from Admirals running it to outsiders like Odo commenting on what a nice set up it is.
 
Oh, don't worry, I'm not claiming that the CIA is perfect. No government (or organization within a government) EVER is.

I'll refer you to my earlier post in another thread, to explain the differences.
 
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Look at "Inquisition" agent. Sloan's goal is to persuade Bashir to join Section 31. Bashir refuses to join not so much because he is against the idea of espionage and black ops, as because he is against the idea of an organization that puts itself above the law and makes itself unaccountable to the democratic state. If Section 31 were actually a legitimate part of the Federation government, it would be irrational for Sloan not to disclose this to Bashir, because doing so would allow him to achieve his objective.

I disagree on this point simply because by the time Bashir is asking these questions it appears to be clear to Sloan that Bashir would be someone that would talk to his superiors due to his moral standing. Bashir does not have clearance for such information and if he did find out than Sisko would find out and go on a hunt followed by the Federation's plausible deniability being lost due to the Deep Space Nine being on the Frontier and secrets get out because Bashir does tend to talk. Sloan will still recruit Bashir, but not bring him into the organization as he is already showing himself to be a liability due to his moral stance.
 
Perhaps Sloan is confident enough that if Bashir starts spreading the word about Section 31, no one would believe him, and/or Section 31 could simply send thugs to eliminate anyone who does. Because they would.
 
Sloan wants Bashir as an asset, so he doesn't want to be forced to kill him. However he also doesn't want a liability to Section 31. Therefore the Doctor gets as little factual information as possible even when attempting to recruit him. The cell member only knows the person immediately above him, and anyone he recruits below him, would be Sloan's tactic here since Bashir is likely to take the moral high ground if he found out which part of the government sanctioned Section 31.
 
The genius in Section 31 is that it is a self containing cell based outfit with no paperwork interlinked by word of mouth. No concrete evidence that it exists. Anyone apprehended knows only his handler and even at that only vaguely. So you can't just nail this organisation down in any official way. The best you can do is capture agents piece-meal on an individual basis. It really is a Frankenstein monster that claims universal jurisdiction that the Federation can do pretty much nothing about.
 
And I did point out the historical fact that President Roosevelt had a extra-government intelligence organization that answered directly to him.
Did Roosevelt's intelligence contacts engage in espionage, assassinations, or military coverups?
No. They provided him with intelligence info outside of the usual administration channels.
I also think @Sci has done a great job explaining my position, although I'm inclined to think it's a Federation CIA-type outfit that's ultra black rather than a completely rogue organization.
 
Speaking of a pale moonlight and DS9 in general murders and terrorists is a more accurate description then many would be willing to admit.

Section 31 seems to be when the writers decided they didn't believe in utopia or human progress or heck to use DS9 again root beer and happiness.
 
The president would have known about Section 31, if he'd been taking his daily intelligence briefings.
 
Did Roosevelt's intelligence contacts engage in espionage, assassinations, or military coverups?
Espionage definitely, Roosevelt's friends had access to major banks (often they ran them) and the telegraph exchanges (directors and executive committees), and individuals were sent into Germany. Charles Lindbergh, because of his aviation hero status and the misconception he approved of Hitler, on three occasions was allowed to tour German military airbases and aircraft production facilities. And each time he discussed what he saw with Roosevelt.
military coverups
Initially there was a cover-up from the military, and also Congress. In later years Roosevelt transferred information and allowed interviews by the Office of Naval Intelligence (Which Roosevelt basically created) and the FBI.
assassinations
Not to my knowledge.
 
Basically he had a lot of well-connected friends who were able to pass along information outside the usual intelligence channels.
Still a huge gap between that and Section 31
 
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