Does the President know about Section 31

[Emperor Norton]

Section 31 is mentioned as being unaccountable and autonomous. However, does anyone in the government know about section 31? Does the Federation President know about Section 31? Or is it like Men in Black, where no one knows who is not in the organization and yet it somehow functions?

 

[Sci]

Sloan is very clear in "Inquisition:" Section 31 does not answer to any governmental authority. In fact, "Extreme Measures" reveals that Section 31 had an agent in former President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet, spying on him.

So it would appear that the Federation President does not know about Section 31, and it is canonical that Section 31 does not answer to the President.

This is also how it is depicted in the novels.

Spoiler: Trek novels

In A Time to Kill, Admiral Ross blackmails Federation President Min Zife of Bolarus, his chief of staff Koll Azernal, and the Federation Secretary of Military Intelligence into resigning after they launched an illegal occupation and invasion of the planet Tezwa in order to cover up Zife's deal to violate the Khitomer Accords by arming Tezwa with advanced Federation weaponry during the Dominion War. Section 31 takes advantage of the situation by forcing Ross to allow them to secretly assassinate Zife, Azernal, and the secretary. Azernal's internal monologue makes it clear that he knows who Section 31 are and fear them, but that President Zife has never heard of them and has no idea he is about to be assassinated.

In Articles of the Federation, Ross takes the fall for Section 31's assassination of Zife when his successor, President Nanietta Bacco of Cestus, discovers that Zife has been assassinated but erroneously believes Ross did it. Ross's internal monologue makes it clear that he believes Section 31 will assassinate President Bacco if she discovers their responsibility for Zife's death; Ross does not know if Bacco knows about the existence of Section 31 otherwise.

 

[Spot261]

I'd be inclined to suspect the answer would vary from President to President. The OFFICE of the President likely is not not breifed, but the individual in the office is not likely to be a naive person.

Section 31 do not answer to the President and they may well spy on him/her, it does not follow that they would be personally unaware of the organisation, or at least suspect. Section 31 can only cover their tracks so well and few would be as well placed to notice discrepencies, unexpected turns of events that buck the expected trends. Such things would eventually come to notice, no matter how carefully planned if for no other reason than being unlikely in the normal run of events without some unseen hand playing a part.

So I'd personally say yes, many Presidents would likely have some insight, even if it was based on their own deductions rather than official status.

 

[Tenacity]

Federation Presidents usually come off as pretty clueless, so no.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe the president is IN Section 31

 

[Tenacity]

Actually it would make a certain amount of sense that the Federation President was in total control of S31, and they being a paranoid dirty trick organization they spy on their own boss.

As for Sloan, as a field agent/flunky he probably doesn't know who his boss really is, and is under the false impression that S31 is separate from the Federation's governance. His head full of (mostly) disinformation in case of capture.

Chump.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually it would make a certain amount of sense that the Federation President was in total control of S31

If by "a certain amount" you mean "a total lack of", then yes.

 

[Spot261]

This would likely be exactly the sort of model such an organisation would use. Why would they sow such a level of disinformation externally but have the one character we see on screen (at that point) totally informed?

Even the most legitimate intelligence agencies compartmentalise their information bases, with their peers often operating like terrorist cells, so why on earth would Sloan be so well informed as to let us take his perspective as gospel?

 

[Tenacity]

If by "a certain amount" you mean "a total lack of"

Nope, not what I meant.

Starting in the 1930's, President Franklin Roosevelt would employ a network of private citizens in covert roles, separate from government agencies.

He used a number of trusted personal friends as his own private intelligence network around the globe, when traveling on business and on vacations around the world they would collect information during their trips and communicate directly with the President.

One of these men was his New York neighbor, Vincent Astor. Astor would take his luxury yacht Nourmahal on private sailing vacations to the South Pacific, where he spied on the Japanese military buildup.

so why on earth would Sloan be so well informed as to let us take his perspective as gospel?

Yes, but that wouldn't mean Sloan has no knowledge, Sloan would only have what he "needs to know."

 

[Paradise City]

The President probably would be informed if they obstructed official Federation policy in some way. Section 31 would need to be framed as a powerful criminal organisation if they are not answering to any official institution.

The various Presidents are depicted as diplomats and the DS9 guy seems very foolish. I don't think they are operating off-the-book assassination squads as such.

Maybe some mischievous off-screen President from some more hawkish Federation planet would get up to something like that? I don't think Section 31 falls into that category though. It's too much a long term organisation for that.

 

[Jedman67]

I also picture it as a 'black' organization under the CIA-equivalent umbrella.
If it's not sanctioned by the government then its just a criminal organization.

 

[Tenacity]

If it's not sanctioned by the government then its just a criminal organization.

Because anyone or thing not sanctioned by a government is automatically a criminal organization?

Huh?

My usual take on S31 is that it's essentially a group of Federation private citizens who on occasion take matters (but not the law) into their own hands.

Analogies
Someone who shoots an assailant attacking a defenseless person.
Someone who pull a child from in front of a moving car.
Someone who preforms CPR in the middle of a restaurant.

None of which was sanctioned by a government.

 

[Paradise City]

If you usurp the jurisdiction of the executive you are a criminal organisation. Powers of life and death are solely within the gift of the executive to delegate. If S31 hasn't this authorisation, they are formally a gang of murderers and terrorists.

 

[Ithekro]

I don't buy the idea that Section 31 isn't sanctioned by the Federation in some way. They are too well connected and have access to too much equipment to be what people seem to think they are. This is also why I can't buy into the concept of Hydra from the Marvel movies if the descriptions of it are accurate. It just doesn't make sense to have a shadow agency with that many connections lasting for centuries without the Federation knowing and supporting its existence. There maybe lots of plausible deniability and no official word of it to the public or even Starfleet most of the time, but it still has to be an authorized part of the Federation. If not than people like Captain Sisko or Captain Picard would not simply drop looking into it based on some Admiral's say so, nor should there even be an Admiral to give that say so. A shadowy unauthorized organization should not be able to not only develop and implement a genocide plan at Starfleet Medical, but also should not be able to cover it up with bureaucratic red tape unless it was an actual part of Starfleet. It might not be officially on the record (like say MI-6 and any number of secret service acts during the Second World War that are top secret under her Majesty's government), but they are still authorized by the Federation.

Part of out problem with how we perceive Section 31 is that almost all out interaction with the organization in Deep Space Nine are via Bashir, who is a Lieutenant and a Doctor. Both of which are not generally cleared for information on top secret matters nor information on the more hidden parts of Starfleet Intelligence. That is our point of view entry for Section 31 and Sloan never really answers Bashir's questions. Even if it would benefit Sloan into getting Bashir's aid, I doubt he'd give up what section of the government they operate out of simply because that is need to know and Bashir, who is clearly against the concept of there being a Section 31, doesn't need to know. At that point Bashir is a useful person to Section 31, but not someone who can be trusted with their secrets, and never is such a person as Bashir's ethics as a Doctor conflict with his potential as a secret agent even if he likes to play the "James Bond" role in the holodeck.

 

[The Wormhole]

Section 31 would need to be framed as a powerful criminal organisation if they are not answering to any official institution.

They are.

If it's not sanctioned by the government then its just a criminal organization.

It is.

My usual take on S31 is that it's essentially a group of Federation private citizens who on occasion take matters (but not the law) into their own hands.

Analogies
Someone who shoots an assailant attacking a defenseless person.
Someone who pull a child from in front of a moving car.
Someone who preforms CPR in the middle of a restaurant.

None of which was sanctioned by a government.

None of that is comparable to an organization which attempts genocide or builds top secret scary evil starships.

If S31 hasn't this authorisation, they are formally a gang of murderers and terrorists.

They are.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Section 31 are not shooting a man in self defense, they are claiming authority to execute the law. A better analogy is lynching a person who is accused of a crime.

It's unclear where Section 31 gets their seemingly massive resources. They must have some kind of powerful connections. As to whether they are sanctioned by the Federation, I would say they are generally not sanctioned by the Federation, except they unofficially were for about two years during the time the Dominion War seemed unwinnable.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^That isn't so much sanctioning them as it is conveniently looking the other way. Which is essentially condoning what they do.

 

[diankra]

Section 31 was invented when Dark Skies was on-air. In DS, Truman established M13, and let them decide which, if any, of his successors should be informed of its existence.

 

[Emperor Norton]

Section 31 was invented when Dark Skies was on-air. In DS, Truman established M13, and let them decide which, if any, of his successors should be informed of its existence.

The 90s were the era of X-Files and the Oliver Stone "everything is a dark conspiracy!" culture of paranoia and distrust. Not that Star Trek really needed to play into that.

 

[Tenacity]

I don't buy the idea that Section 31 isn't sanctioned by the Federation in some way.

It possible that they aren't authorized by the entirety of the Federation governance, as to whether they're supported by civilians in the Federation (and how many) is a different question.

I think it likely that individuals in the Federation, and in Starfleet, support S31. Finance, equipment, transportation, access. Somewhere there were the people and facilities that created the sickness that the Founders were infected with.

If everything that S31 did during the Dominion War was reveled, what percentage of the Federation populace would ultimately agree with their intended goals, if not their methods?

If you usurp the jurisdiction of the executive you are a criminal organisation

And if the executive is just sitting on it's hands while a powerful enemy advances and maneuvers it's assets into position, what then?

"Oh, we all should wait for the executive to act (someday)."

If S31 hasn't this authorisation, they are formally a gang of murderers and terrorists.

And the actions seen in the episode In The Pale Moonllight, would you describe the DS9 senior officers (and Garak) as "a gang of murderers and terrorists?"

Just as you would if S31 did the exact same thing?

Powers of life and death are solely within the gift of the executive to delegate

So the Federation you envision is one where people are not allowed to protect themselves?

None of that is comparable to an organization which attempts genocide or builds top secret scary evil starships.

In terms of a basic concept it is comparable, it's individuals stepping forward and doing something without first seeking permission. They are protecting their families (Sloan spoke of his family), protecting their community, and protecting the Federation as a whole.