Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different people?

[DWF]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

He did technically die completely on Karn. The Sisters brought him back with the option of jumpstarting his regeneration, or he would go back to being dead in I guess eight minutes or something like that. That is sort of why I call it his second life.

He technically died in the TV movie as well, even saying that he was dead for too long and the regeneration process almost didn't work. In a way every Doctor dies to make way for the next one.

 

[Starkers]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

I don't recall the fall in "The End of Time." Haven't gotten there yet.

But the effect of falls is always inconsistent in TV and movies. For instance, I've noticed that some reason, whenever anyone falls down a hole into an underground cavern or tunnel, they can plummet for, like, ten or twelve seconds before hitting the bottom and be totally fine aside from a few bruises; whereas a fall of just a few stories onto pavement is usually lethal. It's a weird convention. It's as if people think that falling further down below ground level "doesn't count" the same way that falling from a high place does.

But falls in real life are inconsistent. In fact any kind of injury is inconstant. Some people will fall from a great height and survive, others will fall from a lesser height and die. Some people survive being shot multiple times by automatic weapons fire but others will be killed after being hit by a single .22 round. The human body is both incredibly fragile and incredibly strong. How often do we see news reports of old people mercilessly beaten up by burglars but who nevertheless survive, whilst some teenager takes a single punch during a drunken night out, falls over and hits their head the wrong way and dies. Why should the Doctor be any different? Maybe 9 times out of ten he’d have survived the Logopolis fall, or maybe 9 times out of ten the fall in TEOF would have killed him.

 

[Tom]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

In Logopolis he landed on the softer grass also. In the end of time , some of the strength of the glass and frame could have slowed down his fall before he hit the floor.

Still, it really depends on how he landed. In EOT he was face down and his arms could have helped impact to his body. In Logopolis we see 4 on his back, he could have hit his head for all we know.

6 presumably regenerates by his head hitting the console. But, since we never saw it who really knows.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

Doesn't Ten have a 200-year-long 'farewell tour' between "The Waters of Mars" and "The End of Time", much like Eleven did between "Closing Time" and "Wedding" ?

Where do you get that from? He said he was 906 in "The End of Time," and Eleven said he was 907 in "Flesh and Stone."

From the The End of Time script, as transcribed by chakoteya.net:

[Ood Sphere]
(The Tardis materialises in the snowy landscape, and the Doctor steps out wearing a stetson and a lei. Ood Sigma is waiting for him.)

DOCTOR: Ah! Now, sorry. There you are. So, where were we? I was summoned, wasn't I? An Ood in the snow, calling to me. Well, I didn't exactly come straight here. Had a bit of fun, you know. Travelled about, did this and that. Got into trouble. You know me. It was brilliant. I saw the Phosphorous Carousel of the Great Magellan Gestadt, saved a planet from the Red Carnivorous Maw, named a galaxy Alison. Got married. That was a mistake. Good Queen Bess. And let me tell you, her nickname is no longer... ahem. Anyway, what do you want?

SIGMA: You should not have delayed.

DOCTOR: The last time I was here you said my song would be ending soon, and I'm in no hurry for that.

So maybe not 200 years, but definitely a 'farewell tour' that was long enough to have a few more adventures than just Day of the Doctor.

Although if he does say he's 907 in Flesh and Stone (which I had forgotten), then it can't have been too long of a tour. He's not Cher.

And thats why I do believe the Tenth was the shortest incarnation of the Doctor. If nothing else, his anguish in his regeneration story makes sense because he enjoyed that body so much and he didn't live nearly long enough in it. Not saying that was the driving motivation for him, as we do know he had "vanity issues at the time". But its not an illogical conclusion to arrive to.

If we go by that very "vanity issues" quote, then Ten is even shorter than you're saying. He only lasts from Parting of the Ways to The Stolen Earth. From Journey's End to The End of Time it's actually a whole separate regeneration, that just happens to have the same face and personality. (Obviously Tennant didn't act like that was the case at the time because Moffat hadn't written that yet, but we have to accept it as canon in the wake of The Time of the Doctor.)

So that short time for Ten is actually two even shorter times for two Tens.

.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

One can certainly argue that it wasn't even vanity issues per se, he just didn't feel that that incarnation hadn't had sufficient time to play yet compared to all the others.
It's like giving a kid a new toy and taking it right away again after just a few minutes.
The kid would have been unpleased, too.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

We didn't actually see that Doctor all that much after Journey's End. Just a handful of specials and the Day of the Doctor.

When the Doctor is boasting about saving everyone on Earth and those remaining on the starliner Titanic, he says he is 903 years old. Donna's year is the year after that going by Turn Left. So the Doctor was running from his fate for only two or three years. Well, years by however the Doctor counts his age.

Day of the Doctor takes place during his running, as he is 904 there, and an event mentioned to Sigma ("got married") happens at that time. So that should be after Donna, as he was with Donna last time he saw Sigma.

 

[DWF]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

From the tenth Doctor's poiont of view The Day Of The Doctor clearly happens after The Waters Of Mars and before The End Of Time. And given what he says about his age, he was the Doctor for only about four years making him clearly the Doctor with the shortest lifespan.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

From the tenth Doctor's poiont of view The Day Of The Doctor clearly happens after The Waters Of Mars and The End Of Time. And given what he says about his age, he was the Doctor for only about four years making him clearly the Doctor with the shortest lifespan.

I assume you mean 'after TWOM and before TEOT' or 'between TWOM and TEOT'?

I'd go along with you in general about Ten's lifespan but I don't think there's anything to say that Nine lived any longer. We can speculate that Nine had lots of adventures before Rose or even between his disappearance and re-appearance at the end of that episode but we can equally speculate as to what Ten got up to during the specials or how long occurred between them.

IIRC, didn't Russell T Davies at one stage consider adding some grey to Tennant's hair or otherwise making him look older for TEOT, so as to suggest that years had passed in the Doctor's lifetime?

 

[Christopher]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

We can speculate that Nine had lots of adventures before Rose or even between his disappearance and re-appearance at the end of that episode ...

Well, it's explicit that Nine and Rose had adventures between episodes. "Boom Town" and others had Rose talking about visits to planets we didn't see onscreen. I believe RTD did this deliberately to leave room for tie-in novels; in fact, one episode (maybe "Boom Town" again) directly references a planet visited in a tie-in.

Although I guess if you're trying to rationalize inserting extra decades into Nine's life, then it has to be when he's not traveling with Rose. And that's why I just don't buy it. The Doctor latched onto Rose because she was the one who brought him out of his post-Time War PTSD -- and probably because he subconsciously remembered her face and voice as that of the Moment, his salvation from his great crime, even though he'd consciously forgotten those events. It makes sense that he met her relatively soon after his regeneration -- not immediately after, maybe a few subjective months or so, but not decades after.

 

[DWF]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

I don't recall any comments from RTD about greying Tennant's hair. And it is hard to judge Eccleston's era.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

Well, it's explicit that Nine and Rose had adventures between episodes. "Boom Town" and others had Rose talking about visits to planets we didn't see onscreen. I believe RTD did this deliberately to leave room for tie-in novels; in fact, one episode (maybe "Boom Town" again) directly references a planet visited in a tie-in.

And Titan Comics will likewise present an adventure set in that time period. Can't wait!

Although I guess if you're trying to rationalize inserting extra decades into Nine's life, then it has to be when he's not traveling with Rose. And that's why I just don't buy it. The Doctor latched onto Rose because she was the one who brought him out of his post-Time War PTSD -- and probably because he subconsciously remembered her face and voice as that of the Moment, his salvation from his great crime, even though he'd consciously forgotten those events. It makes sense that he met her relatively soon after his regeneration -- not immediately after, maybe a few subjective months or so, but not decades after.

Thats your opinion. Its not a fact that his adventure in Rose was his first after Day of the Doctor's events. Likewise, he could very easily have had myriad adventures just before he came to Rose in the end of that episode. And why couldn't he meet Rose decades later? Whats prohibiting it?

Absolutely nothing. Cause he clearly had spent time without her. Really, the evidence is there to support the case that Nine could have lived for longer than the one series. You just don't seem enamored with the idea.

That is, if you don't want to consider the implication of the dungeon conversation that clearly infered to Nine being (or will be) several decades old. And besides, he was not the Doctor for a LONG time. And he just destroyed his species, along with the Daleks. You don't think he immediately became the Doctor again? A process of mourning and acceptance, not unlike what he went through in Snowmen, ought to have occured for him, before he could decide that he was the Doctor again.

I don't recall any comments from RTD about greying Tennant's hair.

I did hear something like that, though. Would've been cool to add some age to that Doctor. But I'm not complaining.

And it is hard to judge Eccleston's era.

Thats the double-edge sword of having an actor unwilling to portray the Doctor for more than a series, and when that said Doctor was never introduced like the rest of the Doctors have (with a post-regeneration scene, that is).

In an ironic sense, he's the most mysterious of the Doctors since the first. And no, the Warrior wasn't mysterious - he was the Warrior, and thats that. The mystery was in his non-canonicity by the Doctor himself.

EDIT: There is a novel written for the 50th anniversary, called The Beast of Babylon, that infers to the Ninth going into the events of Rose shortly after regenerating... but I call BS on that, personally. Mostly because it was clearly written before Day of the Doctor stipulated that the Doctor wasn't the Doctor for a LONG time before Ninth.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

Thats your opinion.

Which is what "I don't buy it" generally means. I wasn't expressing it as anything but an opinion.

And why couldn't he meet Rose decades later? Whats prohibiting it?

It just doesn't make sense for me from a character standpoint. It undermines the psychological and emotional significance of Rose to the Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth lives. There had to be some reason why she was so special to him compared to other companions. It works from a characterization standpoint if Rose is the one he connects to after the Time War, the one who brings him back to himself. And it works if that resonates with the visage the Moment adopted in his darkest hour. It fits together emotionally and dramatically, and I don't see any reason to undermine that just for the sake of getting the numbers to add up.

That is, if you don't want to consider the implication of the dungeon conversation that clearly infered to Nine being (or will be) several decades old.

Wrong. I have considered the implications, and I've rejected them. Don't accuse me of being thoughtless just because my thought process came to a different conclusion than yours. I just value character meaning over numbers, especially when the Doctor admits in the very scene you're talking about that his estimates of his own age cannot be trusted.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. We're not in court. You don't have to argue me into submission. This is a discussion board, and discussions are not about winning, they're about sharing alternative views. It is permissible -- and desirable -- for different people to read different things into fiction.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

It just doesn't make sense for me from a character standpoint.

And does it make more sense that he'll have started feeling like the Doctor again in mere months? Remember, he originally did destroy Gallifrey, and didn't have a grin on his face when he killed them all. And effectively, he still think thats what occured, so his turmoil is still there.

It undermines the psychological and emotional significance of Rose to the Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth lives.

By meeting her decades later? Thats absurd. He changed into a better person because of her anyway. No reason why that can't be if they met later on.

There had to be some reason why she was so special to him compared to other companions. It works from a characterization standpoint if Rose is the one he connects to after the Time War, the one who brings him back to himself. And it works if that resonates with the visage the Moment adopted in his darkest hour. It fits together emotionally and dramatically, and I don't see any reason to undermine that just for the sake of getting the numbers to add up.

I'm sorry, but I don't how any of that is undermined if he meets up later on. We don't know much about the Ninth, as DMW said. Based on what we saw, he seemed for a while to be in a period of mourning, trying to save people from fixed points of time.

If anything, the Doctor seemed to struggle being the Doctor, even with Rose. But with her, he slowly regained his footing. And even when she left, he still retained that darkness and it could consume him from time to time. Turn Left proved that without Donna, he'd have killed that Spider Queen, but would also have died himself. Its not unreasobale, then, to assume that he was a darker persona before he met her, kinda like Six or Twelfth. And even Six mellowed with Evelyn and Mel, and he met them both relatively later than when he was with Peri.

Wrong. I have considered the implications, and I've rejected them. Don't accuse me of being thoughtless just because my thought process came to a different conclusion than yours. I just value character meaning over numbers, especially when the Doctor admits in the very scene you're talking about that his estimates of his own age cannot be trusted.

The point is, if Moffat didn't want to infer to this, he wouldn't. And Eleven's comment afterwards is clearly a poke at the franchise in general, which is true.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

And does it make more sense that he'll have started feeling like the Doctor again in mere months?'

But that's the whole point -- that it was Rose who brought him back to himself.

And yeah, maybe it could've been longer than a few months, but I don't see any reason to assume a whole century passed. What did he do in all that time? If he was wandering for a century and got over it on his own, maybe traveling with other companions in the interim, it makes Rose's significance harder to justify.

By meeting her decades later? Thats absurd.

And that's insulting. Again, there's no reason to make this a fight. None of this actually happened, so nothing is at stake here for either of us. If you're going to be rude, I'm going to walk away.

He changed into a better person because of her anyway. No reason why that can't be if they met later on.

But there's no reason to assume that they did -- just a passing numerical reference in a later story. I don't think that single tiny implication carries enough weight to justify reinterpreting the whole Doctor-Rose relationship.

Based on what we saw, he seemed for a while to be in a period of mourning, trying to save people from fixed points of time.

Sorry, I just rewatched Eccleston's season last week, and I didn't see any indication of "trying to save people from fixed points of time." I'm currently up to the third season, and the phrase "fixed point" hasn't even been uttered yet. Googling Chakoteya's transcripts tells me that the phrase was first used to describe Captain Jack in "Utopia." The first time it was used to mean an immutable point in history, as far as I can tell, is "The Fires of Pompeii."

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

But that's the whole point -- that it was Rose who brought him back to himself.

OK, no one is disputing that. At all.

And yeah, maybe it could've been longer than a few months, but I don't see any reason to assume a whole century passed. What did he do in all that time? If he was wandering for a century and got over it on his own, maybe traveling with other companions in the interim, it makes Rose's significance harder to justify.

No it doesn't. It just means he met her in his Ninth self later. Whats the big deal?

And that's insulting. Again, there's no reason to make this a fight. None of this actually happened, so nothing is at stake here for either of us. If you're going to be rude, I'm going to walk away.

Did not intend to a fight. But fair enough - I apologize. I fear I get a bit too passionate in these discussions.

But there's no reason to assume that they did -- just a passing numerical reference in a later story.

Much the same way, there is no implication that Nine was either a new incarnation when he met Rose, or that he was a short-lived one. Nowhere in his series, in fact - especially if in RTD's mind, it was him who fought in the Time War.

I don't think that single tiny implication carries enough weight to justify reinterpreting the whole Doctor-Rose relationship.

Ah, but that the thing: There's nothing to re-interpret. The Ninth Doctor's time without Rose is a mystery, at best. We don't know what he did, but there was nothing to say that he had to meet Rose as soon as regenerating. Conversely, he could've been the shortest incarnation yet, but there is no absolute proof that he was. In fact, two indications illustrate this point - Ten's unwillingness to regenerate and the dungeon speak in Day of the Doctor.

What Day of the Doctor did was make intrinsic what was implicit. That the Ninth Doctor wasn't that old, but was still older than Ten, who appropriately whined about regenerating too soon in End of Time. Doesn't his reaction to his regeneration make sense to you if he was the shortest incarnation to date? It very much does to me, at least.

Also, you haven't considered that the Doctor being in a vulnerable place after destroying his own kind. If he took a "sabbatical" when he lost Amy and Rory, wouldn't he do so similarly after having destroying his own species?

Sorry, I just rewatched Eccleston's season last week, and I didn't see any indication of "trying to save people from fixed points of time."

He did try to prevent from boarding the Titanic, though. And those pictures depicted them in various times, without Rose.

I'm currently up to the third season, and the phrase "fixed point" hasn't even been uttered yet. Googling Chakoteya's transcripts tells me that the phrase was first used to describe Captain Jack in "Utopia." The first time it was used to mean an immutable point in history, as far as I can tell, is "The Fires of Pompeii."

Fine. I was just trying to illustrate a point.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

I think Ten's reaction to regenerating too soon can also be interpreted as being down to the fact that, unlike Nine, he was quite comfortable in his skin. Nine never was and was always guilt-ridden and angsty, even under the big grin and lust for life. I think he saw the sacrifice for arose as a chance to atone in some small way for destroying Gallifrey and redeem himself.

Whereas Ten, while still carrying the survivor's guilt, had come to terms more so than his predecessor and didn't welcome the opportunity to sacrifice himself for someone else quite so readily. Of course, being the Doctor, he still did it, even if it was for an old man rather than a young woman.

 

[Mr Awe]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

From the Doctor's point of view, Wilf is a *young* man!

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

^ Ha, true but Wilf was near the end of his life whereas Ten, like Rose, was near the start of his.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

I think Ten's reaction to regenerating too soon can also be interpreted as being down to the fact that, unlike Nine, he was quite comfortable in his skin. Nine never was and was always guilt-ridden and angsty, even under the big grin and lust for life. I think he saw the sacrifice for arose as a chance to atone in some small way for destroying Gallifrey and redeem himself.

Whereas Ten, while still carrying the survivor's guilt, had come to terms more so than his predecessor and didn't welcome the opportunity to sacrifice himself for someone else quite so readily. Of course, being the Doctor, he still did it, even if it was for an old man rather than a young woman.

That is absolutely true. After all, he "wasted" a regeneration in Journey's End because he REALLY liked himself at the time.

 

[Ithekro]

Re: Does the Doctor think of his earlier incarnations as different peo

There is something in the Day of the Doctor that suggests that Nine may still be a very short incarnation. The way the Tenth and Eleventh react to the War Doctor and that they think he has already used the Moment when they meet him. It was Clara that figured out that this was the War Doctor before he used the Moment. I assume they think the rest of his time would be time locked, thus it would have to be him from after the war.

This suggests to me that the War Doctor was around for at least a bit after the Time War. Sure we saw his regeneration, but we don't know when that was really. He was alone in the TARDIS. The Ninth had time to change the theme to what the Fifth Doctor called "coral" (and misplacing "the round things" in the process). Probably make a few stops to build up a record of trying to save people from disasters (and get an internet following). Though it is also possible he did those with Rose, just she managed to no get into the pictures (or they were not looking for her, thus we didn't see her there). Though death followed where he went (well actually he was going to where their was already known death), until later on when he started to get days were "everybody lives".

So the question comes to how rough is the War Doctor's "something like 800 years old) verses Nine's 900 year old? And how long was the War Doctor cruising around post Time War? Ten and Eleven seem to think he had been around and they didn't want to think about him. Perhaps aside from the Time War, that was the face they had for much of his early PTSD and his years trying to find his way again. Regenerating into Nine made him feel like he could call himself the Doctor again, and then went on what he thought was what the Doctor should be doing. Saving people. He seems to have problems with it as while he manages to save some on Earth, he seems to be failing ot save whole world from the fallout of the Time War (though that part could have been the War Doctor's early attempts to get back to himself). He then runs into Rose during one of these stops and finally looks at himself (noticing the ears which he'd hoped would be less noticable this time around).

So something less than a century passed (for the Doctor) between the End of the Time War and the events of Rose. How much was it the War Doctor trying to get over what he thinks he did and how much of it was the Ninth Doctor definately trying to get over what he believes he did. Regardless of the Doctor using the Moment of not to end the Time War, he still did horrible things during the war. Fought and killed. Things he remembers that he'd rather not remember. The ending was just the most horrible thing (which he did and yet didn't do).