Spoilers Does the average citizen know about….

[gvn2fly]

I think Section 31 was handled poorly in recent Trek. In TMBS everyone seemed to know about them. They operated a bigass space station and gazillions of ships and even ran around Starfleet vessels with their own black badges. And now in PIC they store their stuff openly at Daystrom Station. Sure, the station is top secret but one would think that S31 had its own concealed storage and didn't rely on the civilian Daystrom Institute. It just feels likecurrent writers didn't bother to actually watch DS9 and see what S31 was really about.

I think there's enough wiggle room with section 31's presentation of Section 31. Starfleet command knew of them (didn't deny their existence to Sisko, gave him the runaround when he asked them about it), Admiral Ross worked with them. So clearly they were known. Maybe not to the average Starfleet officer, but the higher ups at Starfleet knew who and what they were. Starfleet even agreed with their tactics (genocide) by not providing a cure.

DS9 is over 100 years after section 31's appearances in Discovery so them being known in the time of Discovery doesn't necessarily mean they would be in the following century. I wonder how Riker found out about them.

 

[Spike730]

But they absolutely didn't want to be known. So it seems very odd, that they would cooperate with a civilian agency and even label their stuff with "Section 31".

 

[The Wormhole]

I wonder how Riker found out about them.

Even if we're ignoring the fact that everyone in these modern shows seems aware of Section 31 (which is itself the subject of a meta joke in season 3 of Lower Decks) then TATV does imply that Section 31 was involved with the Pegasus, which would be how Riker found out about them.

 

[gvn2fly]

But they absolutely didn't want to be known. So it seems very odd, that they would cooperate with a civilian agency and even label their stuff with "Section 31".

I agree with you on that one. Should have had their own base, but maybe the writers just wanted to use the "daystrom" name for familiarity?

 

[Deks]

Yes, Changelings being captured is new idea this series has introduced, but it makes sense when you think about it. After all, Section 31 would have needed access to Changelings in order to create a virus that could kill them. So it stands to reason they must have captured some in order to experiment on.

But they DID have access to a Changeling. Odo.
I just figured S31 devised the virus after SF received Bashir's scans of Odo from DS9 and when Odo visited Earth... subsequently, he was infected (aka became the carrier)... pretty much how it was described on DS9.

Also, what "hundred that S31 discovered"? There's no reference ever to Section 31 discovering a hundred changelings. I think you're confusing this with the Hundred, a hundred changelings the Founders sent out into the galaxy to learn about it and return to the Great Link to share what they learned about the region of space they ended up in. Odo was one of the Hundred, as was Laas and the baby changeling Odo looked after in season 5's The Begotten. Section 31 had nothing to do with them at all.

As for whether Vadic is part of the Hundred, not impossible, I guess, but I personally doubt it.

I was positing that S31 may have found SOME of the hundred changelings which were sent out initially by the great link in the first place and experimented on them.

Alternatively, it was partly hinted that S31 could have also made these changelings themselves from samples they got from Odo and then experimented on them.

Also, just as we had 0 reference to SF or S31 capturing any Founders during the war, there was no mention of either finding and experimenting on some of the hundred... but its still possible.

Capturing changelings prior or during the war would have been exceedingly difficult to start with... but S31 had access to super advanced technologies in the first place, so its possible they could have used something from their repository at Daystrom Station.

 

[The Wormhole]

But they DID have access to a Changeling. Odo.

Section 31 did not have 24/7 access to Odo and regardless, it's not a good idea to use the intended carrier as the experimental guinea pig for a genocidal virus since if something goes wrong resulting in death of the test subject, it pretty much screws the plan completely if the test subject is also the intended carrier. So logically they would have had to have changeling prisoners of their own to experiment on and in the event one of them dies, it's a setback but one that's just part of the learning process rather than completely screwing the plan over that experimenting on Odo would have risked being.

 

[Deks]

Here's a question that would be really interesting to contemplate: To what extent is Section 31's/Starfleet's attempted genocide of the Founders/Changelings known among the public? The surviving Cardassians would tell the rest of the galaxy about the disease the Founders suffered from. And people like Kira (after seeing what it did to Odo) and Bashir especially might not feel any obligation to keep something like this a secret.

Vadic is right that even if you're willing to lay the blame at Section 31's feet, the fact the Federation Council and Starfleet were willing to withhold the cure makes them complicit in what is tantamount to a war crime by even 21st century standards.

Beyond that, I can see the decision being debated among the public in the same way the US nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been. Arguably, horrific actions that people either see as an atrocity or a "needs of the many" situation where an unthinkable option is made with the justification that it's the least bad choice.

Meanwhile, Vadic has just 'swept under the rug' the fact the Founders were the ones who initiated hostilities by infiltrating the AQ and trying to destabilize the major powers from within for YEARS prior to the war (and also conveniently left out the fact the Dominion destoryed New Bajor colony, and destroyed or captured a number of exploratory ships from the AQ in the first 2 years of the wormhole opening (which is how the Dominion managed to adjust their technology to counter the Federation's).
On top of this, the Founders used biogenic weapons in the GQ to infect a species with the Quickening. They used genetic engineering to experiment on other species too (which also resulted in creation of the Vorta and eventually the Jem'Hadaar).

For all her proclamations of the torture she endured, the Founders were found to have committed FAR more in terms of 'atrocities'.
To say nothing of the fact that neither the UFP council or SF would have sanctioned the Changelings being tortured.
That was all S31 doing... and SF and UFP council were effectively kept in the dark about this.

The only thing SF and the Federation council were 'guilty' of was withholding the cure for the virus once they discovered of its existence... and given the amount of deaths the war caused to that point in time, its understandable the UFP council and SF would have had reservations about sharing a cure with the very people who were very clear that they wanted to destroy the Federation and already initiated a number of hostilities in the form of sabotage, and actively replacing officers with their own agents (and sometimes killing the people they replaced) prior to when the war started... and of course the amount of deaths caused by the war itself.

 

[Deks]

Section 31 did not have 24/7 access to Odo and regardless, it's not a good idea to use the intended carrier as the experimental guinea pig for a genocidal virus since if something goes wrong resulting in death of the test subject, it pretty much screws the plan completely if the test subject is also the intended carrier. So logically they would have had to have changeling prisoners of their own to experiment on and in the event one of them dies, it's a setback but one that's just part of the learning process rather than completely screwing the plan over that experimenting on Odo would have risked being.

My guess is that the medical scans Bashir performed on Odo on a number of occasions and samples he received throughout the years were sent to SF medical - plus its possible Dr. Moira also had Odo's samples elsewhere which could have been sent to SF medical.

S31 would have gained access to those scans and samples and would have easily been able to devise a virus from that.

 

[Turtletrekker]

My head canon is that after the Control fiasco Section 31 used the same methods that were used to erase Discovery from all records to erase themselves from all records. So, once all the people who actually knew about Section 31directly had passed, it transitioned into "shadowy legend" status.

Then, after the high-profile crimes committed during the Dominion War became public knowledge, people were able to fill in the blanks.

 

[The Wormhole]

Meanwhile, Vadic has just 'swept under the rug' the fact the Founders were the ones who initiated hostilities by infiltrating the AQ and trying to destabilize the major powers from within for YEARS prior to the war (and also conveniently left out the fact the Dominion destoryed New Bajor colony, and destroyed or captured a number of exploratory ships from the AQ in the first 2 years of the wormhole opening (which is how the Dominion managed to adjust their technology to counter the Federation's).
On top of this, the Founders used biogenic weapons in the GQ to infect a species with the Quickening. They used genetic engineering to experiment on other species too (which also resulted in creation of the Vorta and eventually the Jem'Hadaar).

For all her proclamations of the torture she endured, the Founders were found to have committed FAR more in terms of 'atrocities'.
To say nothing of the fact that neither the UFP council or SF would have sanctioned the Changelings being tortured.
That was all S31 doing... and SF and UFP council were effectively kept in the dark about this.

The only thing SF and the Federation council were 'guilty' of was withholding the cure for the virus once they discovered of its existence... and given the amount of deaths the war caused to that point in time, its understandable the UFP council and SF would have had reservations about sharing a cure with the very people who were very clear that they wanted to destroy the Federation and already initiated a number of hostilities in the form of sabotage, and actively replacing officers with their own agents (and sometimes killing the people they replaced) prior to when the war started... and of course the amount of deaths caused by the war itself.

Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guys. The Dominion believed the Federation ships entering the Gamma Quadrant and the New Bajor colony were incursions which represented a security threat to them and acted accordingly, by their own standards.

From Vadic's perspective, the fact Section 31 is unsanctioned is besides the point. The point, to Vadic is she was held prisoner in Federation space, and during which time she was tortured. and those same people who tortured her created a bioweapon and used to to commit genocide against her people The fact that the Federation Council and Starfleet officially forbid torture of their prisoners and genocide of their is immaterial, the deed was still done. That is empirical fact. And the Federation did not help their side of the argument any by later withholding the cure.

War is very rarely a conflict of good vs evil. It is often simply a conflict of two opposing ideologies, and that is exactly what the Dominion War was. The fact that atrocities were committed by both sides is the point. We're biased to the Federation's side since we watch a show which presents the Federation as the good guys, but the Dominion would also think of themselves as the bad guys and are inclined to vilify the Federation and Starfleet accordingly.

 

[NCC-73515]

I think Section 31 was handled poorly in recent Trek. In TMBS everyone seemed to know about them. They operated a bigass space station and gazillions of ships and even ran around Starfleet vessels with their own black badges. And now in PIC they store their stuff openly at Daystrom Station. Sure, the station is top secret but one would think that S31 had its own concealed storage and didn't rely on the civilian Daystrom Institute. It just feels like current writers didn't bother to actually watch DS9 and see what S31 was really about.

The Kelvin version was hiding in a library, it's just a cover

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Kelvin version was hiding in a library, it's just a cover

If it's call "Daystrom" it's Section 31. Hell, M-5 was probably a Sec31 project.,

 

[gvn2fly]

To say nothing of the fact that neither the UFP council or SF would have sanctioned the Changelings being tortured.
That was all S31 doing... and SF and UFP council were effectively kept in the dark about this.

We don't know this for sure.

 

[fireproof78]

We don't know this for sure.

Black ops are usually compartmented in a way that allows for plausible deniability.

 

[The Wormhole]

We don't know this for sure.

I mean, it's not like Section 31 actively seeks out permission for the horrible shit they do.

 

[johnnybear]

As someone who hasn't seen the final episodes of DS9 yet, are the Federation forbidden to travel into the Gamma Quadrant now? Something like a Dominion Neutral Zone perhaps? Or are the changelings just going to ignore Federation ships establishing colonies in the space beyond the Bajoran Wormhole after the conflict?
JB

 

[The Emissary]

Here's a question that would be really interesting to contemplate: To what extent is Section 31's/Starfleet's attempted genocide of the Founders/Changelings known among the public? The surviving Cardassians would tell the rest of the galaxy about the disease the Founders suffered from. And people like Kira (after seeing what it did to Odo) and Bashir especially might not feel any obligation to keep something like this a secret.

Beyond that, I can see the decision being debated among the public in the same way the US nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been. Arguably, horrific actions that people either see as an atrocity or a "needs of the many" situation where an unthinkable option is made with the justification that it's the least bad choice.

That's a good question. Like you pointed out, the Cardassians and maybe the Breen would be able to tell everyone. Also, I imagine the Klingons and Romulans (at least their higher ups) would definitely be aware that this virus did not appear out of thin air.

Starfleet could do the whole "plausible deniability" act with S31, though.

I always wonder how much the general public is made aware of Starfleet's adventures in general. Are they aware that Species 8472 planned to infiltrate Starfleet but the VOY crew stopped this? Are they aware that their history was nearly wiped out but the ENT-E crew saved First Contact? Are they aware their timeline got erased with the death of Gabriel Bell and Sisko has to take his place? Are they aware that the Q nearly "judged" humanity? etc. etc. etc.

Judging by the way Picard was treated like a retiree that should have been home spending his days opening jars and not a galactic-sized hero that saved multiple species, timelines, and realities - I'm going to guess it isn't common knowledge.

 

[Racefuel]

Starfleet command sanctioned the complete and total mass murder annihilation of the Borg..yet somehow experimenting on changlings that are actively in a war to destroy the Federation is unthinkable?

Pollyanna much?

 

[Citiprime]

Starfleet command sanctioned the complete and total mass murder annihilation of the Borg..yet somehow experimenting on changlings that are actively in a war to destroy the Federation is unthinkable?

Pollyanna much?

The Borg can be somewhat rationalized, since (at least at the point pre-"I Borg") you can make the argument that Starfleet was in conflict with a single entity in the collective. So an attack against the Borg is not exactly one where there's civilians and innocent children who will be affected. Once it became clear that it was possible for a Borg drone to break away under the right circumstances then it became much, much murkier.

But I think even Picard would call what was done to the Changelings a stain that betrays the values the Federation were founded upon.

I mean the Allies hung Nazis and Japanese war criminals for doing the exact same thing, and hunted Dr. Josef Mengele for decades for experimenting on prisoners in the same way.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Borg can be somewhat rationalized, since (at least at the point pre-"I Borg") you can make the argument that Starfleet was in conflict with a single entity in the collective. So an attack against the Borg is not exactly one where there's civilians and innocent children who will be affected. Once it became clear that it was possible for a Borg drone to break away under the right circumstances then it became much, much murkier.

Admiral Nechayev chewed Picard out in Decent Part 2 for not using the Virus, and told him if he ever had the chance to wipe out the Borg again to take it. Despite the fact it had been proven Borg could be saved.

NECHAYEV: Captain, I've read the report that you submitted to Admiral Brooks last year regarding the Borg you called Hugh, and I've been trying to figure out why you let him go.
PICARD: I thought that I had made that clear.
NECHAYEV: As I understand, it you found a single Borg at a crash site, brought it aboard the Enterprise, studied it, analysed it, and eventually found a way to send it back to the Borg with a programme that would have destroyed the entire collective once and for all. But instead, you nursed the Borg back to health, treated it like a guest, gave it a name, and then sent it home. Why?
PICARD: When Hugh was separated from the Borg collective he began to grow and to evolve into something other than an automaton. He became a person. When that happened, I felt I had no choice but to respect his rights as an individual.
NECHAYEV: Of course you had a choice. You could've taken the opportunity to rid the Federation of a mortal enemy, one that has killed tens of thousands of innocent people, and which may kill even more.
PICARD: No one is more aware of the danger than I am. But I am also bound by my oath and my conscience to uphold certain principles. And I will not sacrifice them in order to
NECHAYEV: Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens, not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future, an opportunity to destroy the Borg, you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?
PICARD: Yes, sir.