Spoilers Does the average citizen know about….

[Citiprime]

Here's a question that would be really interesting to contemplate: To what extent is Section 31's/Starfleet's attempted genocide of the Founders/Changelings known among the public? The surviving Cardassians would tell the rest of the galaxy about the disease the Founders suffered from. And people like Kira (after seeing what it did to Odo) and Bashir especially might not feel any obligation to keep something like this a secret.

Vadic is right that even if you're willing to lay the blame at Section 31's feet, the fact the Federation Council and Starfleet were willing to withhold the cure makes them complicit in what is tantamount to a war crime by even 21st century standards.

Beyond that, I can see the decision being debated among the public in the same way the US nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been. Arguably, horrific actions that people either see as an atrocity or a "needs of the many" situation where an unthinkable option is made with the justification that it's the least bad choice.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I would imagine that most of the Federation public is unaware that Section 31 even exists. I mean, most of us are unaware of divisions of the CIA unless we actually have a vested interest in their operations--and even then, we're unlikely to know everything they've done unless we're in the inside, IMO.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'd hope that if the Federation public ever became aware that Section 31 exists, it would very shortly stop existing.

 

[Citiprime]

Technically, they wouldn’t need to know about the existence of Section 31 for the idea that Starfleet used a biological weapon against the Founders to spread as a rumor.

Given the level of paranoia the public was suffering from around the time of DS9’s “Homefront/Paradise Lost,” it may be something the public accepted as just another necessary measure in war.

Moreover, I can’t see Julian, especially after how outraged he is by Ross’s complicity with Section 31, staying quiet about it if he were asked. Plus, the Cardassians that survived would tell the galaxy about the Founders coming down with a plague. And people might ask why the Female Founder surrendered.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Vadic is right that even if you're willing to lay the blame at Section 31's feet, the fact the Federation Council and Starfleet were willing to withhold the cure makes them complicit in what is tantamount to a war crime by even 21st century standards.

Apart from the part where she said it was one of her own that stole the cure. It was in fact Bashir, with help from O'Brien that stole it, it's just that it took Odo to pass that on.

I'm not saying it makes it better. What I'm saying is, her statement about a changeling having to steal the cure is not entirely accurate, and it's possible she isn't fully aware of that part herself.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Federation did use the cure as leverage to end the war.

 

[fireproof78]

Vadic just might be a biased narrator.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'd hope that if the Federation public ever became aware that Section 31 exists, it would very shortly stop existing.

Nah, not even Section 31 could kill every one.

 

[The Wormhole]

Apart from the part where she said it was one of her own that stole the cure. It was in fact Bashir, with help from O'Brien that stole it, it's just that it took Odo to pass that on.

I'm not saying it makes it better. What I'm saying is, her statement about a changeling having to steal the cure is not entirely accurate, and it's possible she isn't fully aware of that part herself.

Odo did technically defy orders when he cured the Female Changeling in WYLB. So Vadic is telling the truth, from a certain point of view.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Odo did technically defy orders when he cured the Female Changeling in WYLB. So Vadic is telling the truth, from a certain point of view.

Vadic might be telling the truth as she understands it, but...

Was Odo actually defying orders? Nobody specifically ordered him not to cure the female changeling. Garek said it was a bad idea, and Kira agreed. But only Garek tried to stop him, and Kira stopped Garek from stopping him.

Kira was the only one acting with any starfleet authority in that scene.

However, she is right in that starfleet didn't deliver the cure, as Kira was back in Bajoran Militia uniform for that scene.

I'm not stating he never got specific orders not to deliver the cure, but if he did, it was offscreen. As such, we don't know.

If Starfleet (other than section 31) really did vote to withhold the cure once it was available and had the means to deliver it, we only have Vadic's word on that.

 

[The Wormhole]

Was Odo actually defying orders?

Yes. In Dogs of War Sisko tells Odo he's under direct orders from the Federation Council not to share the cure with the other Changelings, which Odo agreed to under protest. Odo goes ahead of his own accord in WYLB and cures the Female Changeling. Obviously the fact this led to the end of the War was enough to convince the Federation Council not to pursue disciplinary action against Odo, but Odo was still defying their direct orders.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Yes. In Dogs of War Sisko tells Odo he's under direct orders from the Federation Council not to share the cure with the other Changelings, which Odo agreed to under protest. Odo goes ahead of his own accord in WYLB and cures the Female Changeling. Obviously the fact this led to the end of the War was enough to convince the Federation Council not to pursue disciplinary action against Odo, but Odo was still defying their direct orders.

Ok, yeah. I completely forgot that scene existed. Thing is, I did rewatch DS9 late last year, and for some reason, that scene (and I have no idea how many times I've watched through DS9 in my life, but it's a lot) doesn't seem to want to stick with me.

 

[Tuskin38]

Odo wasn't a Federation citizen, so was he really defying orders?

 

[Deks]

Here's a question that would be really interesting to contemplate: To what extent is Section 31's/Starfleet's attempted genocide of the Founders/Changelings known among the public? The surviving Cardassians would tell the rest of the galaxy about the disease the Founders suffered from. And people like Kira (after seeing what it did to Odo) and Bashir especially might not feel any obligation to keep something like this a secret.

Vadic is right that even if you're willing to lay the blame at Section 31's feet, the fact the Federation Council and Starfleet were willing to withhold the cure makes them complicit in what is tantamount to a war crime by even 21st century standards.

Beyond that, I can see the decision being debated among the public in the same way the US nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been. Arguably, horrific actions that people either see as an atrocity or a "needs of the many" situation where an unthinkable option is made with the justification that it's the least bad choice.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but Vadic was not right when she said that one of their own had to steal the cure.
Bashir and O'Brien (two solid SF officers) stole the cure from Sloan's mind so they can cure Odo. I'm not entirely sure what their stance was on sharing the cure with the Founders as a whole, but they trusted Odo and for him to make the final call if I'm not mistaken.

So, there was a clear division in whether the Founders should be cured, but ultimately, they trusted Odo to reach the decision, which they had, and a cure was delivered to the Great Link.

In regards to the Federation Council and SF being unwilling to share the cure with the Founders... that was understandable.
The Founders were willing to destroy the Federation by almost any means necessary and were NOT above using biogenic weapons on other species (remember the Quickening?).

So I found Vadic's claims a bit exaggerated and without any real basis. She blames the Federation for engaging in acts of self-preservation and defense after a rather unprovoked attack and enroachment into the Alpha Quadrant with major military forces... prior to this, the UFP and AQ were sending expeditions to explore the GQ and establish one or two colonies (which was understandable) presumably outside Dominion space.

To make matters worse, instead of the Dominion clearly marking its borders and warning them to NOT encroach on their space in the first place, they did nothing of the kind. Instead, they waited and waited until the captured and destroyed various vessels including New Bajor colony in the first 2 years of the wormhole opening.

The changelings went full foce into the AQ by sending infiltrators in the first 2 years of the wormhole opening to gather intel on the AQ species technology, etc. and do a lot of questionable stuff in the process to destabilize their governments covertly.

Now, I don't agree with Section 31 doing any experiments on the changeling at Daystrom station... in fact, the Federation has clear rules that do not include such methods... S31 openly defied that and did their own thing.

Plus, something didn't make sense... Vadic said she was imprisoned during the War.
I don't recall any founders being captured during the Dominion War from Ds9. So this either happened off screen, or she may have been one of the hundred that S31 discovered.

Also, S31 frequently engaged in unsanctioned practices (which actually happened during the war - and I dread to think what the Dominion did to its own prisoners).
Remember Martok and him losing his eye in combat? SF officers were clearly exposed to torture for information gathering... so that was somehow 'ok' in Vadic's view, and yet an unsanctioned arm of SF Intelligence experiments on Changelings and suddenly she has cause for revenge?

Give me a break. Both sides did questionable things during the war.

 

[Yistaan]

I would imagine that most of the Federation public is unaware that Section 31 even exists. I mean, most of us are unaware of divisions of the CIA unless we actually have a vested interest in their operations--and even then, we're unlikely to know everything they've done unless we're in the inside, IMO.

It's existence might've come out during the Dominion War drama, the way in real life Seal Team 6 became known after the death of Osama bin Laden.

Remember Martok and him losing his eye in combat? SF officers were clearly exposed to torture for information gathering... so that was somehow 'ok' in Vadic's view, and yet an unsanctioned arm of SF Intelligence experiments on Changelings and suddenly she has cause for revenge?

Vadic's side is implied to STILL be doing it as Changeling Tuvok said that when they were through with the real Tuvok, Tuvok will wish he were dead. So despite being a victim of torture themselves, Vadic's changelings have no hesitation in torturing their enemies, which is the definition of hypocrisy.

 

[Citiprime]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but Vadic was not right when she said that one of their own had to steal the cure.
Bashir and O'Brien (two solid SF officers) stole the cure from Sloan's mind so they can cure Odo. I'm not entirely sure what their stance was on sharing the cure with the Founders as a whole, but they trusted Odo and for him to make the final call if I'm not mistaken.

So, there was a clear division in whether the Founders should be cured, but ultimately, they trusted Odo to reach the decision, which they had, and a cure was delivered to the Great Link.

Sisko, through the Federation Council and Starfleet Command, specifically orders Odo NOT to give the Founders the cure. And Odo outright states the decision is abetting genocide.

From DS9's "Dogs of War" (Season 7, Episode 24):

BASHIR: Section 31. They used you as a carrier, hoping you would pass on the disease to the Founders. I'm sure you were never meant to develop symptoms.

ODO: I don't care whether they meant to kill me or not. The reality is the Federation set out to destroy my people.

BASHIR: Section 31 aren't part of the Federation. They're a rogue organization that...

ODO: Don't split hairs with me, Doctor. They used me as an instrument to try to commit genocide. Now we may be at war with the Founders, but that's no excuse.

BASHIR: I completely agree.

ODO: And what does Starfleet intend to do about it?

SISKO: The Federation Council considered giving the Founders the cure, then they decided against it.

ODO: Then they're abetting genocide.

SISKO: I don't condone what Section 31 did, but the Founders started this war, not us. Giving them the cure would strengthen their hand. We can't do that. Not when there are still millions of men and women out there putting their lives on the line every day.

ODO: Well, I can see there's no point protesting. The decision's been made.

SISKO: Odo, I wish I didn't have to say this, but I need to know you're not going to take matters into your own hands.

ODO: You have my word.

SISKO: That's all I needed to hear.

ODO: Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?

In regards to the Federation Council and SF being unwilling to share the cure with the Founders... that was understandable.
The Founders were willing to destroy the Federation by almost any means necessary and were NOT above using biogenic weapons on other species (remember the Quickening?).

So I found Vadic's claims a bit exaggerated and without any real basis. She blames the Federation for engaging in acts of self-preservation and defense after a rather unprovoked attack and enroachment into the Alpha Quadrant with major military forces... prior to this, the UFP and AQ were sending expeditions to explore the GQ and establish one or two colonies (which was understandable) presumably outside Dominion space.

I think the decision has parallels to the US's decision to nuke Japan, and how there were no really good choices, and the decision for the Federation to arguably engage in genocide can be rationalized as the least bad choice.

For some of the people that see the bombings as an atrocity, one of the alternative arguments put forward about the United States' use of nuclear weapons is that President Truman should have instead just ordered a strict blockade of the Japanese islands to force the Japanese to surrender. It's probably the closest option to the reasoning that says the Federation was justified in using devastating effects against an entire population as leverage to force capitulation.

However, the argument is very morally dubious. It basically argues that it would have been "better" for the US to STARVE millions of people by withholding necessities to force surrender than to have killed thousands with Fat Man and Little Boy.

 

[The Wormhole]

Odo wasn't a Federation citizen, so was he really defying orders?

He was stationed on a Starfleet outpost and answered to a Starfleet Captain, whose commands he still has a legal obligation to follow. But even if you want to indulge in this particular ambiguity, Odo did voluntarily agree to follow the Council's orders on this matter, so he was still defying orders anyway.

Plus, something didn't make sense... Vadic said she was imprisoned during the War.
I don't recall any founders being captured during the Dominion War from Ds9. So this either happened off screen, or she may have been one of the hundred that S31 discovered.

Yes, Changelings being captured is new idea this series has introduced, but it makes sense when you think about it. After all, Section 31 would have needed access to Changelings in order to create a virus that could kill them. So it stands to reason they must have captured some in order to experiment on.

Also, what "hundred that S31 discovered"? There's no reference ever to Section 31 discovering a hundred changelings. I think you're confusing this with the Hundred, a hundred changelings the Founders sent out into the galaxy to learn about it and return to the Great Link to share what they learned about the region of space they ended up in. Odo was one of the Hundred, as was Laas and the baby changeling Odo looked after in season 5's The Begotten. Section 31 had nothing to do with them at all.

As for whether Vadic is part of the Hundred, not impossible, I guess, but I personally doubt it.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

As for whether Vadic is part of the Hundred, not impossible, I guess, but I personally doubt it.

I would say she wasn't either. She referred to herself as a prisoner of war, and sounded sincere when she responded, "we don't" to Picard's query about them having music in the great link.

 

[Spike730]

I think Section 31 was handled poorly in recent Trek. In TMBS everyone seemed to know about them. They operated a bigass space station and gazillions of ships and even ran around Starfleet vessels with their own black badges. And now in PIC they store their stuff openly at Daystrom Station. Sure, the station is top secret but one would think that S31 had its own concealed storage and didn't rely on the civilian Daystrom Institute. It just feels like current writers didn't bother to actually watch DS9 and see what S31 was really about.

 

[The Wormhole]

It just feels likecurrent writers didn't bother to actually watch DS9 and see what S31 was really about.

It's actually possibly worse than that. According to some sources, when novel author David Mack (who worked as a creative consultant on season 1 of Disco) heard about how Section 31 would be depicted in season 2 of Disco, he wrote a memo to the writers reminding them that Section 31 was meant to be an illegal criminal conspiracy rather than a legitimate intelligence service. They ignored him.