Spoilers Does "Light and Shadows" contradict "Journey to Babel"?

[Antediluvia]

According to Journey to Babel, Spock and Sarek have been estranged for 18 years.

DIS "Light and Shadows" shows them meeting up well within that window.

One might say you can "waive it away" because he doesn't directly address Spock, or talk to him.

I'd say it's a bit iffy though. What are your thoughts?

 

[Lord Garth]

Not really. Sarek basically wanted to give Spock to the CIA. It's not like they were speaking as Father and Son or that Spock was really speaking to anyone.

 

[Christopher]

"Journey" said that Spock and Sarek haven't "spoken as father and son" for 18 years. That doesn't mean they never spoke at all, just that they didn't acknowledge each other as family or speak about anything personal. So the wiggle room was built into the original line. "Light and Shadows" is far from the first work of fiction to take advantage of that wiggle room; a few tie-in books and comics over the years have shown Spock and Sarek having brief, formal interactions with no familial acknowledgment during that time.

 

[KennyB]

I think that’s looking for nitpicks. Did they speak? Did they hang out? Was Spock even aware who was around him? Move along.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Discovery doesn't fit with TOS, period.

As much as I love TOS, it's dated and sexist. Try and imagine the same world the Disco crew live in being the same one where Kirk grabs and holds his yeoman on the bridge, or where the "world of Starship commanders doesn't admit women" or where women are being shipped off to be wives on the frontier. The feel of the universe isn't the same. The continuity isn't the same. The visuals are all-new. It's as much the world of TOS as Smallville is that of Superboy.

 

[Antediluvia]

I think that’s looking for nitpicks. Did they speak? Did they hang out? Was Spock even aware who was around him? Move along.

>Looking for nitpicks
>Star Trek Fandom Forum

 

[Nerys Myk]

According to Journey to Babel, Spock and Sarek have been estranged for 18 years.

DIS "Light and Shadows" shows them meeting up well within that window.

One might say you can "waive it away" because he doesn't directly address Spock, or talk to him.

I'd say it's a bit iffy though. What are your thoughts?

Amanda say's Spock last visited them four years prior to JTB.

AMANDA: And you haven't come to see us in four years, either.

So he probably talked with Amanda and suffered through awkward silences with Sarek.

 

[cultcross]

According to Journey to Babel, Spock and Sarek have been estranged for 18 years.

DIS "Light and Shadows" shows them meeting up well within that window.

One might say you can "waive it away" because he doesn't directly address Spock, or talk to him.

I'd say it's a bit iffy though. What are your thoughts?

Being estranged doesn't mean you literally never interact or be in the same room. It just means they had no functional/positive relationship. The line was "spoken as father and son" I think, that to me means more than just speaking/interacting. Their relationship was broken, there's nothing in DSC to contradict that.

 

[Succubint]

Yeah, it's in JTB itself, Amanda says it's been four years since he last visited. So clearly they did have personal contact, just that they haven't been treating each other like father and son for much much longer. Most likely because of Spock's decision not to join the Vulcan Expeditionary Group and choice to pursue a Starfleet career instead. Last season's Lethe filled in some gaps there and helped flesh out why this is a major sticking point with Sarek. In JTB, Spock offers the above reason for some of the estrangement. We also see Amanda teasing Sarek in private that he is secretly proud of his son's achievements. (This may actually resonate even more considering his childhood learning setbacks and most recent problems Discovery is exploring). Amanda appears to have acted as an intermediary for some time and also shows a lot of frustration at how stubborn and 'Vulcan' both men are being. What we saw in Light and Shadows doesn't contradict this.

Perhaps we will see Spock also resents Sarek for turning him in to S31 or he accepts it as logical at the time but it still keeps the emotional rift in place. Perhaps Sarek will have feelings of guilt for his decision should the peril to Spock be brought to his attention.

Some things I'm actually glad they ignored from JTB. They aren't doing that stupid finger touching thing, especially in the way Sarek used it to call his wife to heel, almost, at times.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Amanda say's Spock last visited them four years prior to JTB four years, either. So he probably talked with Amanda and suffered through awkward silences with Sarek.

 

[JoeZhang]

The two critical bits of dialogue to me:

SAREK: It is not a question of approval. The fact exists. He is in Starfleet. He must command respect if he is to function.
AMANDA: Sarek, you're proud of him, aren't you? You're showing almost human pride in your son.
SAREK: It does not require pride to ask that Spock be given the respect which is his due. Not as my son, but as Spock. Do you understand?
AMANDA: Not really, but it doesn't matter. I love you anyway. I know. It isn't logical.

and

AMANDA: After all these years among humans, you still haven't learned to smile.
SPOCK: Humans smile with so little provocation.
AMANDA: And you haven't come to see us in four years, either.
SPOCK: The situation between my father and myself has not changed.


It seems fairly easy to me that they meet as Spock and Sarek but not father and son.

 

[Rahul]

Discovery doesn't fit with TOS, period.

As much as I love TOS, it's dated

Agreed to a point.

and sexist.

Holy shit, do you not know what you're talkin' about.
With the exeption of this weird body-swap episode, TOS is less sexist than most superhero movies of today and what's on mainstream television now (Big Bang Theory anyone? Two and a half man?). Much less than for it's time.

In fact, DIS might be more "woke" than TOS - but holy hell is DIS less progressive for it's time than TOS was in it's own. (If you want to know what was "normal" for the 60s, go watch "I Dream of Jeannie")

Deriding a show for the very things it set a progressive standard about, for not measuring up to today's standards - standards it itself helped to set - is really, really unreasonable.

"SHAFT was a revolutionary first mainstream black movie hero? But look how stereotypical "black" he is! So fuck that racist garbage and better have it never happened!"

Jesus Christ it's unbelievable how wrong you are....

 

[Nerys Myk]

(Big Bang Theory anyone?

Huh? Half the cast are women. Women with with high paying jobs and advanced degrees, who are usually smarter than the male characters.

(If you want to know what was "normal" for the 60s, go watch "I Dream of Jeannie")

Jeannie was hardly the norm for the 60's.

 

[Nyotarules]

Amanda say's Spock last visited them four years prior to JTB.So he probably talked with Amanda and suffered through awkward silences with Sarek.

Sarek took the sehlat for a walk when Spock showed up

 

[F. King Daniel]

Agreed to a point.



Holy shit, do you not know what you're talkin' about.
With the exeption of this weird body-swap episode, TOS is less sexist than most superhero movies of today and what's on mainstream television now (Big Bang Theory anyone? Two and a half man?). Much less than for it's time.

In fact, DIS might be more "woke" than TOS - but holy hell is DIS less progressive for it's time than TOS was in it's own. (If you want to know what was "normal" for the 60s, go watch "I Dream of Jeannie")

Deriding a show for the very things it set a progressive standard about, for not measuring up to today's standards - standards it itself helped to set - is really, really unreasonable.

"SHAFT was a revolutionary first mainstream black movie hero? But look how stereotypical "black" he is! So fuck that racist garbage and better have it never happened!"

Jesus Christ it's unbelievable how wrong you are....

"It's just I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge."

"I'm scared, captain!"

"The imposter had some interesting qualities, eh, yeoman?" [to sexual assault victim Rand, on the bridge infront of everyone]

Referring to T'Pring as "the girl"

"Your world of Starship captains doesn't admit women!"

It may have been ahead of the curve for it's time, but TOS doesn't measure up by today's standards. And more directly to the point, none of that would be acceptable in the world of Discovery, either. Ergo, they do not fit into the same world. Discovery is a modern version of Trek, with 2019 sensibilities and not 1960's ones.

 

[Nyotarules]

For a sci-fi show it showed a future that was not a White's only zone although The Cage was a White's only zone. But apart from that it was not progressive.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Huh? Half the cast are women. Women with with high paying jobs and advanced degrees, who are usually smarter than the male characters.

It's still misogynistic crap. Whole essays have been written about that fact

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's still misogynistic crap. Whole essays have been written about that fact

I enjoy the show and really haven't found it to be so. But, I am a guy.

 

[fireproof78]

This thread escalated quickly.

 

[David cgc]

"It's just I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge."

In a manner of speaking, that one was from 1988. The fact that it was trimmed out of "The Menagerie" probably should count for at least as much as it having been filmed in the first place.