Does it make me a bad person, if I agree with Brannon Braga?

[suncrafter]

"Threshold" was the worst ST episode ever. It failed on so many levels! I could name MANY individual things. Here is just one... when they were turned back into humans they had no visible sign that they had ever been changed at all... they still had hair, fingernails, eye lashes... even make up! WTF?

 

[Charles Phipps]

What bothers me isn't that Kes left.

It's that Kes left when she was obviously possessed of a lot more dramatic potential. The damn time episode showed a ****load of interesting stories that could have been done with her.

They just...didn't.

I feel the same about Robert Beltrane and Chakotay. Everyone complains about Harry Kim not getting enough development but after his "Seska-baby" plot, did he REALLY have anything to do?

 

[Silvercrest]

Seven was a great concept for a character, but she was sabotaged with the idiotic catsuit. That undermined any credibility she might have had as a real character and just made her an object and a smutty joke.

I could see this point years ago when she was first added, but at some point down the line it dawned on me that given she spent her adult life in a borg suit I can actually see how it would make sense she would choose something that is as close to that as possible. Those of us that think of it as a catsuit haven't really thought about how a borg existed in rubber latex looking body cases. If you're coming out of borg existence, that might be the most 'efficient' article of clothing to choose. It covers the skin. All that's needed. Sure, it was for sex appeal, but given how Seven was all about efficiency, I can see the appeal of it. Nothing to fuss with ever.

And the high heels...?

 

[exodus]

I agree that Seven really was a great addition. Possibly the greatest cast addition to any show I can remember. However, Kes had so much more to offer. Don't know why they had to get rid of her. Idiot should've tossed Kim. I don't care what poll had him in the top ten. How many women have ever STOPPED watching a show because some supposedly hot character left? Seriously? Perhaps if it was some kind of pivotal character, but even then, we're far less likely to stop watching and lord knows it's not as if he was gaining any viewers.

Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.

 

[starlitegirl]

Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.

You missed the point entirely. You toss out a list of shows that lost their KEY stars and compare it to what I'm saying? In my post I said 'perhaps if he was some kind of pivotal character' which he was not in any shape form or size, yet most every show you use has key characters leaving:

Charlie Sheen - star of the show

Duchovny - star of the show

Anderson - star of the show

CSI - Grissom was the star of it despite it being an ensemble.

Spin City - Fox was the show! The show was made for him after his stellar performance in An American President.

Law and Order - Which character? Which season? They had so many exits over the years I lost track. So please pick one and keep in mind that this show ran for just shy of 20 years. Figure a two year decline toward the end before cancellation and there is not one character that could have possibly caused some huge decline given there were so many cast changes over the years.

Harry Kim would have not been missed if Kes wasn't missed. Kes played a larger part in the show while kim was on the sidelines. He quite possibly had the least screen time of all the characters. So we're talking apples and oranges since I did say provided they weren't a key character.

Edited to add that you also have not figured into the equation that most of the shows you listed were fairly big hits. Voyager was never a huge hit. It wasn't even on a major network.

 

[tomalak301]

“To me, Seven of Nine added a nice touch of magic that the show needed at the time. The fact that she was a beautiful woman was just, to me, a benefit.”

YES! I totally agree with him.

I read that line, and my first thought was "and you were romantically involved with her Brannon, that's a plus too".

Anyway, I know I'm in a minority, but I like Braga, mainly because with the write writing partner, he could bring out some good stuff, like Cause and Effect and All Good Things. Not only that, but he takes onus on crap episodes, like Threshold.

As for the whole Seven/Kes thing, I've always said that it didn't need to be Seven Vs. Kes. There were characters on the show that could have departed instead of Kes, unfortunately one of those characters, for what ever reason, was named one of the sexiest males of that year (I'm comfortable in my sexuality in saying that Garrett Wang is not one of the first 50 people I think of when I think of sexiest man alive but go figure). Anyway back to Kes and Seven, it would have been great to have them both on the show, and I think it would have made the show better, since it really seemed like Lien came into her own in Season 3 and with the new hairstyle.

 

[exodus]

You missed the point entirely. You toss out a list of shows that lost their KEY stars and compare it to what I'm saying? In my post I said 'perhaps if he was some kind of pivotal character' which he was not in any shape form or size, yet most every show you use has key characters leaving:

Yes, you're post was nothing but pure speculation without a ounce of fact. I was comparing actual fact vs. what you said regardless of if they were pivotal or not. Besides, Braga already clearly covers that in the interview when he states that loosing any character is a risk to loosing parts of your audience. There was equal risk loosing Kes as there was loosing Harry, regardless of personal favoritism.

Edited to add that you also have not figured into the equation that most of the shows you listed were fairly big hits. Voyager was never a huge hit. It wasn't even on a major network.

According to Viacom and the National TV board, UPN was a major network.

 

[starlitegirl]

Yes, you're post was nothing but pure speculation without a ounce of fact. I was comparing actual fact vs. what you said regardless of if they were pivotal or not. Besides, Braga already clearly covers that in the interview when he states that loosing any character is a risk to loosing parts of your audience. There was equal risk loosing Kes as there was loosing Harry, regardless of personal favoritism.

According to Viacom and the National TV board, UPN was a major network.

Ah well then you win. You're right. I can see that now. How I ever had the opinion that Harry was irrelevant is baffling. He was clearly a very important character and his loss could have plummeted the series ratings. Don't know how I missed that.

 

[The Dominion]

What baffles me about Harry Kim is how boring and undeveloped he was, despite the writers having an obsession with him for such a long damn time. If you're going to neglect other characters in favor of glorifying one ensign, you'd better have something to show for it.

 

[Lynx]

I agree that Seven really was a great addition. Possibly the greatest cast addition to any show I can remember. However, Kes had so much more to offer. Don't know why they had to get rid of her. Idiot should've tossed Kim. I don't care what poll had him in the top ten. How many women have ever STOPPED watching a show because some supposedly hot character left? Seriously? Perhaps if it was some kind of pivotal character, but even then, we're far less likely to stop watching and lord knows it's not as if he was gaining any viewers.

Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.

So you mean that Kes was dumped because the actress wasn't Asian or from some other ethnic minority?

Looks like pure racism to me.

Or just another way to justify the rude and unnecessary firing of an actress and the dumping of a great character.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Actually, there's also a case for sexism in this situation.

By switching Seven for Harry, the balance of power tilts dangerously towards the female in the star trek tv equation.

By simply adding Seven to the cast of Nine, it would have diluted the storylines devoted to "other" characters.

I liked Kes... but I came to love Seven. I was sorry to see Kes go, but can't find it in my heart to regret Seven's arrival EVEN though it diluted the presence of my other fav female... B'Elanna Torres.

 

[The Dominion]

Actually, there's also a case for sexism in this situation.

By switching Seven for Harry, the balance of power tilts dangerously towards the female in the star trek tv equation.

I wish they wouldn't have been afraid to do that, I would have liked to see Voyager be the most female dominated crew.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Honestly, Harry was the source of a lot of good stories.

So was Tom, Belenna, the Doctor, and so on.

The question should be...

Who do we get rid of who contributes the LEAST?

I'd have gone with Neelix, good episode about the afterlife or not.

 

[tomalak301]

Just curious, but other than Timeless, what was a good Harry Story. Maybe Non Sequiter, but other than that, I can't think of any.

 

[exodus]

I agree that Seven really was a great addition. Possibly the greatest cast addition to any show I can remember. However, Kes had so much more to offer. Don't know why they had to get rid of her. Idiot should've tossed Kim. I don't care what poll had him in the top ten. How many women have ever STOPPED watching a show because some supposedly hot character left? Seriously? Perhaps if it was some kind of pivotal character, but even then, we're far less likely to stop watching and lord knows it's not as if he was gaining any viewers.

Are you kidding?

X-Files
Homicide
Law & Order
Sliders
Valerie's Family
Spin City
CSI
....and most recently "2 and a 1/2 Men's" future is in question without Charlie Sheen.

There are PLENTY of examples of shows that suffered ratings declines and issues due cast members leaving. It was one of the the main reason the creators of LOST couldn't kill off Jack, who was supposed to die first season.
There are more folks too consider other than women when thinking of getting rid of Garret Wang. Wang is the first Asian actor to be the the main cast of a Trek series. Having Wang in PEOPLE magazine not only has the potential to bring in women but the growing Asian American community as well. It's potentially more controversial to fire an ethnic actor on a show that's supposed to promote equality than it is to swap out one blonde hair, blue eyed actress for another.

So you mean that Kes was dumped because the actress wasn't Asian or from some other ethnic minority?

Looks like pure racism to me.

Or just another way to justify the rude and unnecessary firing of an actress and the dumping of a great character.

Only someone that doesn't understand diversity or racism would call it such.

Voyager had 4 actors in the main cast that are White American, 1 African American, 1 Asian American & 2 Latino American's. The White American actors are still in the minority. Swapping out Seven for Kes doesn't change that, so the show is still racially diverse and not racist.

If the majority of the audience understands the need on the show for a character like Seven, the producers knew they didn't have the budget to for 10 cast members. Then letting someone from the cast go wasn't unnecessary, it was required for show to continue. It's simple economics.

 

[exodus]

I liked Kes... but I came to love Seven. I was sorry to see Kes go, but can't find it in my heart to regret Seven's arrival EVEN though it diluted the presence of my other fav female... B'Elanna Torres.

Really?
I didn't find B'Elanna got diluted at all.
She was the only character besides Tom that didn't require Seven to improve her stories. Most if not all of B'Elanna's eps. don't have Seven in them or little to no interaction between them. Roxanne Dawson is the only actor not up-staged by having Seven around. She carried her eps. all her own. It kinda tells me the writers felt B'Elanna was one of the few characters on the show that could hold their own and Dawson was equally as strong an actress as Ryan & Mulgrew.

 

[The Dominion]

B'Elanna was to good for the writers to keep her down.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The thread title.

Casting no immoral stink on any one.

But it makes me think about Brannon trying to talk Jeri into Anal for the first time.

"C'mon honey it's just my probe."

"More like your nanoprobe."

"Hey! I can use that!"

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Honestly, Harry was the source of a lot of good stories.

Correction - Harry *could* have been the source of a lot of good stories. Maybe if he hadn't been such a bad actor, they would have entrusted him with more dramatic storylines.

And Harry and Seven had fairly similar job roles - they read sensor readings a lot. Keeping Kes over Harry would have made the show much more varied.

 

[exodus]

Honestly, Harry was the source of a lot of good stories.

Correction - Harry *could* have been the source of a lot of good stories. Maybe if he hadn't been such a bad actor, they would have entrusted him with more dramatic storylines.

Not so sure about that.
Levar Burton is a better actor than Wang but Geordi had some pretty shitty stories. Besides being blind, LaForge stories and Kim stories are pretty inter-changeable. Both were misfits when it came to romance and neither one developed much over the years.