Does GENS succeed or fail as an introduction to TNG for new viewers?

[STEPhon IT]

It's telling to me, IMHO, that even the most recent Blu Ray compilation of the TNG movies features 1701-D in the cover art, not 1701-E, presumably because the television version of the TNG Enterprise is more iconic and identifiable.

No surprise there, the 1701-D was beautiful and there was a lot in making that design work. It was indeed futuristic and an advancement to what we've seen prior. I hate to see it go.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I was thinking more about this topic today. Don't get me wrong, I like this movie. Even over First Contact. But, it was an ATROCIOUS way to introduce the Next Gen crew to new viewers. It makes just about all the Next Gen characters look completely incompetent (maybe more so than Harriman was). People give Harriman a bunch of shit for being incompetent, but he could have just been nervous having just been given a high profile assignment skippering the Enterprise-B and being under the scrutiny of the Lame Stream Media. Picard and co. have no excuses, having been an elite team working together for seven years. Let's break this down:

1. Captain Jean-Luc Picard - Gets his ass kicked by a scientist, loses his ship and it eludes him to even go farther back in time and save his brother and nephew. He also needs help from a man from the past in beating up said scientist.

2. Commander William T. (Hotshit Ace Pilot) Riker - Blunders his way through the battle with the Duras sisters and manages to trash the Federation flagship. He also manages to lose a member of his crew and a scientist who is also witness to an investigation currently under way while attempting to rescue La Forge and Data from the Amargosa Observatory.

3. Lt. Commander Data - Picks an inopportune time to install an emotion chip that puts him out of commission until he gets yelled at by Picard. It also causes him to act like an asshole and causes him to let his best friend get kidnapped

4. Lt. Commander Worf - The only thing I can think of is he disobeys a direct order calling for a spread of photon torpedoes and only fires one. Clearly, Worf's strong suit is not numbers.

5. Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge - Chief engineer who doesn't really put any effort into fixing the engine damage. He just opens that door, says "Well, this engine is fucked," and shuts the door. No effort to seal the coolant leak which maybe could have bought him some time to fix the engine.

6. Counselor Deanna Troi - I know that Troi was part of an officer's training program that most likely included instruction on how to pilot a starship. That's in the series. The problem is, this is a movie that should be introducing an audience to new characters. In this context, why did HAP Riker choose the counselor to fly the ship? Why not Lt. Junior Grade Dave the janitor? Or Ensign Ricky? A line of dialogue from Riker, like, "Deanna! Put your pilots training to some use! Take the helm!" could have fixed any confustion. Either way, he gave the ship to the psychiatrist to fly and the ship crashed.

7. Doctor Beverly Crusher - Nothing really I can think of except giving Data mixed messages on how funny it is to see someone get dumped into some water. Possibly even looking like an asshole herself for confusing Data.

The only person in this movie that showed any form of competence was Captain Kirk. He single handedly told Harriman how to get out of the situation, fixed his ship, and then helped Picard beat the crap out of a guy. If anything, any audience should have wished for more adventures with Kirk and co. after being introduced to the incompetence of Picard and co.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I was thinking more about this topic today. Don't get me wrong, I like this movie. Even over First Contact. ...

Generations over First Contact? Absolutely not, but your points had me laughing aloud. Good stuff!

 

[Doc Mugatu]

"Does GENS succeed or fail as an introduction to TNG for new viewers?"

Tough question. Ultimately, I would say, "It succeeds, but barely." Would "First Contact" had made a better introductory TNG motion picture? Yes, without question. Although, maybe if Generations wasn't pushed to come out so soon after TNG went out of first-run syndication? Give it a two year span instead of six months, and I believe the quality of Generations would have improved tenfold at least.

 

[Lance]

Would "First Contact" had made a better introductory TNG motion picture? Yes, without question. Although, maybe if Generations wasn't pushed to come out so soon after TNG went out of first-run syndication? Give it a two year span instead of six months, and I believe the quality of Generations would have improved tenfold at least.

First Contact definitely provides those fundamentals, absolutely. I understand their thinking in slotting a movie into 1994 (indeed, quite aside from promoting TNG to the big screen, it had been three years since the previous sequel so a movie was 'due' anyway), but a gap between the series and the movie would'veI feel provided the cast and crew with enough catharsis to be able to approach the script with fresh eyes again. There was simply no time for anyone to, if you'll pardon the vulgar Australianism, even scratch their ass between wrapping the finale and shooting the film. None of them look as tired as they later do in Nemesis. But they do all look very tired, coming off the back of shooting Season 7 of the show, which they don't by the time First Contact rolls along. Everyone comes to that movie fresh and revitalized and ready to go.

 

[Khan 2.0]

First Contact definitely provides those fundamentals, absolutely. I understand their thinking in slotting a movie into 1994 (indeed, quite aside from promoting TNG to the big screen, it had been three years since the previous sequel so a movie was 'due' anyway), but a gap between the series and the movie would'veI feel provided the cast and crew with enough catharsis to be able to approach the script with fresh eyes again. There was simply no time for anyone to, if you'll pardon the vulgar Australianism, even scratch their ass between wrapping the finale and shooting the film. None of them look as tired as they later do in Nemesis. But they do all look very tired, coming off the back of shooting Season 7 of the show, which they don't by the time First Contact rolls along. Everyone comes to that movie fresh and revitalized and ready to go.

Yes what was needed was a nice 6month-1year break for everyone, with a rethink of the script like Nimoy suggested (maybe hand it over to him and Meyer for a rewrite) for a more satisfactory crossover (K/S/B opening, Ent A cameo, rethink the whole nexus thing to make it more coherent/timetravelly, Kirk on the Ent D at some point, 24th century Spock appearance, better Kirk death like spocks) with Nimoy directing to target a Xmas 95 or summer or xmas 96 release to celebrate the 30th (as happened with TUC/Unification for the 25th)

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Generations over First Contact?

FWIW, I put First Contact at the absolute bottom of the original ten movies. It's a pointless, unambitious, tonal mess, and Frakes doesn't acquit himself well behind the camera, imho.

Yes what was needed was a nice 6month-1year break for everyone, with a rethink of the script like Nimoy suggested (maybe hand it over to him and Meyer for a rewrite) for a more satisfactory crossover (K/S/B opening, Ent A cameo, rethink the whole nexus thing to make it more coherent/timetravelly, Kirk on the Ent D at some point, 24th century Spock appearance, better Kirk death like spocks) with Nimoy directing to target a Xmas 95 or summer or xmas 96 release to celebrate the 30th (as happened with TUC/Unification for the 25th)

I have always wanted to know what Nimoy's script suggestions were. As best I can tell, he never said.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I have always wanted to know what Nimoy's script suggestions were. As best I can tell, he never said.

In his book 'I Am Spock' (1995) it states he was offered Generations to direct and appear in the opening but said the script needed work but Berman said there was no time for that so he bid them good luck

 

[Allyn Gibson]

In his book 'I Am Spock' (1995) it states he was offered Generations to direct and appear in the opening but said the script needed work but Berman said there was no time for that so he bid them good luck

Yeah, that's as far as Nimoy ever said publicly. I've heard that there were seven things Nimoy said needed to be changed, but specifically what those were were probably left between Berman and Nimoy.

 

[suarezguy]

I've also long wondered if seeing the familiar Enterprise sets being gradually corrupted and Borgified in First Contact would've made for a greater emotional resonance

That idea would have been too ambitious, the result either too shocking or (more likely) really half-hearted and underwhelming.

Keeping the old ship and sets or somehow modifying the sets would have made the films seem too much like just more of the series, for movies both new uniforms & ship make more sense. And it probably wouldn't have been believable for the D to suddenly get a refit that did significantly change the appearance even as much as TMP did for the original ship let alone more.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Generations over First Contact? Absolutely not, but your points had me laughing aloud. Good stuff!

I LOVED First Contact when it first came out and I was 16. As I get older, more and more of its faults stick out to me. The direction is really pedestrian. Generations feels cinematic with its lighting, First Contact feels like a TV episode. All the background extras really feel like extras. They're just standing there. Like the scene when Picard asks where the Borg sphere was firing, the guy manning the console remains silent and Riker has to literally push him aside and give the report. There are other things as well

 

[The Wormhole]

All the background extras really feel like extras. They're just standing there.

That's Generations, where people are literally just hanging out on the bridge. They wanted to show off they had extra money to play with in the movie vs a typical TV episode, but unfortunately, the extra people on the bridge are just there.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

That's Generations, where people are literally just hanging out on the bridge. They wanted to show off they had extra money to play with in the movie vs a typical TV episode, but unfortunately, the extra people on the bridge are just there.

But in Generations, they actually react to what's going on. Even the random crewmember who does the fist bump just before Data does the exact same thing does more than extras in First Contact, who stand around (in the midst of Earth and history possibly being wiped out by the Borg) looking bored and clueless.

 

[Jeyl]

Oh, that reminds me.

Does anyone else think it's awkward that at the very end, where Picard is about to make his speech, he chooses to end on a quote from the Soran? The man who destroyed two solar systems, the Enterprise crew AND Kirk? You'd think if the writers wanted to have Kirk leave an impression on Picard, he'd quote his 'make a difference' line. And in all honestly, his attempt to rebut Soran's "Time is a Predator" line is incredibly stupid.

 

[Dukhat]

Oh, that reminds me.

Does anyone else think it's awkward that at the very end, where Picard is about to make his speech, he chooses to end on a quote from the Soran? The man who destroyed two solar systems, the Enterprise crew AND Kirk? You'd think if the writers wanted to have Kirk leave an impression on Picard, he'd quote his 'make a difference' line. And in all honestly, his attempt to rebut Soran's "Time is a Predator" line is incredibly stupid.

What annoyed me more was Picard saying "Somehow I doubt this will be the last ship to carry the name Enterprise." Like the destruction of the ship he commanded for 7 years means nothing to him. He was more emotional about his stupid photo album (which the audience had never seen before this film) than the Enterprise-D.

 

[Lance]

Oh, that reminds me.

Does anyone else think it's awkward that at the very end, where Picard is about to make his speech, he chooses to end on a quote from the Soran? The man who destroyed two solar systems, the Enterprise crew AND Kirk? You'd think if the writers wanted to have Kirk leave an impression on Picard, he'd quote his 'make a difference' line. And in all honestly, his attempt to rebut Soran's "Time is a Predator" line is incredibly stupid.

Soran's lines are something I really like about the movie, and I've been known to paraphrase them in real-life conversation "Time is a fire in which we burn... it's a predator, stalking us."

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Soran's lines are something I really like about the movie, and I've been known to paraphrase them in real-life conversation "Time is a fire in which we burn... it's a predator, stalking us."

Malcolm McDowell was so taken by the line, "Time is the fire in which we burn," that he had it engraved on a pocket watch.

It comes from an obscure poem, Delmore Schwartz's "Calmly We Walk Through This April's Day," which ends on the couplet: "Time is the school in which we learn, / Time is the fire in which we burn."

 

[Smellmet]

Malcolm McDowell was so taken by the line, "Time is the fire in which we burn," that he had it engraved on a pocket watch.

It comes from an obscure poem, Delmore Schwartz's "Calmly We Walk Through This April's Day," which ends on the couplet: "Time is the school in which we learn, / Time is the fire in which we burn."

That's an interesting bit of trivia.

 

[Maurice]

Jumping back to the question of opening the TNG-era part of the movie with a battle, Jeri Taylor was absolutely right that you can't jump from one big action scene to another. An adventure film works in a tension-release-tension-release fashion and there has to be a breather between action sequences or it's too exhausting. What scene they chose to do instead of action was stupid and ill-considered, but her general note about not putting two action sequences back-to-back was correct.

 

[Desert Kris]

So I voted no for Generations as an introductory story. I like it ok, but I don't watch it very often. When I first saw it in the theaters, there was something about it that I knew didn't quite work as a movie, wouldn't work for non-fans, and didn't work for me personally.

There's an interesting point that has been raised about the structure and pacing of the movie, and adhering to the needs of the story as it unfolds. There's been talk about the opening scene as an action piece, which makes it problematic to introduce the TNG crew with an action piece that sets them up in the best light. They traded TOS crew's need for TNG's crew's need. Someone suggested that the Enterprise-B sequence should have been dropped, and although I kind of like that sequence, I think that would have done the movie a huge favor. There's something really weird about the Enteprise-B sequence in the first place, it has the storytelling style of TNG story writing, at least that's the vibe I always got from it. TOS characters had a good action sequence to close on with TUC. This lets the writers have a stronger case for an opening action sequence for TNG, to give them a good introduction.

It would make it more interesting to have the investigation of the Soran and the Nexus connection tie in to a final adventure where Kirk is killed. And then reveal gradually through dialogue and some tantalizing flashbacks that fire our imagination about what exactly happened, I think that would be a strong audience lure that would make the investigation more interesting. The less we know, the more interesting it is. And we feel like we learn along with TNG's crew, rather than kind of knowing or suspecting the answer, and waiting impatiently for them to catch up. I think the movie could have worked well that way, better.

It kind of reminds me of arguments about shaping the story line for The Wrath of Khan. One of the weakness that some people feel are that there needs to be an in person confrontation between Kirk and Khan. It's an intriguing potential scene to try and imagine in my mind's eye. But I can only imagine how they tried to re-work the movie to make it happen, with the potential of bending the story into a weird shape that doesn't work. Generations has the feel of a movie that has been bent into a weird shape, because the writers made choices about scenes that they felt they had to have, but didn't.

Generations still has pacing problems, anyway. I always felt that the transition from the Enterprise-D crashing/Soran vs. Picard fight into the Nexus is a jarring tonal shift. From the shock of the Enterprise dying, to the possibility they were all killed on the Veridian planet, to a weirdly creepy yet smothering saccharine Christmas thing that I found excruciatingly boring as well.