Does Davros make the Daleks less effective?

[Whofan]

It's often been argued by many fans that Davros sort of took the spotlight from the Daleks in pretty much all his appearences. Granted, this is a character who was intended to really be a one-off (as he was 'killed' at the end of Genesis), but apparentally Terry Nation wanted to keep using him (and demanded that Eric Saward do the same). Many felt he was kind of like the Borg Queen, ruining the effectiveness of the Daleks when they were by themselves.

IMO the best Davros stories are probably his debut, Genesis of the Daleks, and Revelation of the Daleks where he plays a bit of a different role as "The great healer" (but of course is using it as a front for creating Daleks). It's worth noting that the Daleks in the serials aren't really 'following' Davros, they just need his help and are quick to turn on him, unless he's (1) brainwashed them, as was the case with Ressurection, or (2)created his own Dalek species, as was the case with Revelation and Rememberance. Of course we also have him do this in Stolen Earth/Journey's End ('cloned' out of his own DNA), but even these Daleks don't seem to trust him entirely, as the Tenth Doctor notes he's the Dalek's "pet". So he's not really their leader at any point, really.


There is of course the Big Finish audios which are sort of "Dalek-lite" stories-specifically "Davros" and the "I, Davros" audios, which had 80s Davros Terry Molloy.

I actually would consider the 80s Cyberleader more of a Borg Queen-type, myself. He sort of took away the 'they're all the same' aspect of the Cybermen, and also was more emotional, ala the Borg Queen.

 

[Bones2]

I don't think he makes the Daleks less effective. They don't lose their threat for his existence (such as how the Borg Queen made the Borg less sinister by essentially having a chatty emotional Borg). Different stories have different emphases, but that's a different thing. Though both Davros and the Daleks appear in both, Revelation is mostly about Davros and Remembrance is mostly about the Daleks. I think having the imperial and renegade faction arc (if arc's the word, which it probably isn't) does a lot to help prevent a Borg Queen effect, and the only time the Daleks seemed any less dangerous in a Davros story was Destiny (which was a rubbish, smug, pratfalling comedy anyway). Resurrection isn't great, but Davros' presence doesn't harm the sense of threat you get from the Daleks.

Anyway, in short, I'd answer no to the topic question.

 

[Lonemagpie]

In-universe, he certainly does take away from them. Before Genesis, they're an unstoppably huge empire. After it, they're factionised (is that even a word?) and squabbling more among themselves than managing to conquer other bits of the universe. And that's a good outcome for the Timeys who sent the Doctor to fuck them up.

 

[starsuperion]

I think Davros does cause a loss of effectiveness, had Davros not been convincing the Supreme Dalek that Dalek Khan's visions should be adhered to, the Supreme Dalek would have wiped the Doctor and the rest from all of reality..during the events of Journey's end..

Davros runs interference, and causes the Daleks to halt their actions, to his whims, and in most cases, the Daleks would have been better off just doing what they do best, killing out right..

 

[Bones2]

Yeah, but Journey's End was ridiculous rubbish and trying to apply conventional logic to it is far too flattering.

 

[Shatnertage]

I think we saw all we needed to of the character in Genesis. He's the evil genius who created the Daleks. Making him apparently immortal and the center of the action just doesn't do much for me. I don't think anything I could say would ever match the "Yes, I would do it!" speech from Genesis.

It just makes more sense for him to be killed by his own creation, from a story point of view. And it makes the Daleks all the more menacing.

 

[Bones2]

There's an argument that the Davros retcon removed the tragic thing about the Daleks from their original serial; that they were survivors of a nuclear war who were previously artists and peaceful and that kind of thing (the Dals), but got all mutated and hateful, needing the casings too survive. I seem to recall that this angle was why the story got made in the first place, as Doctor Who was meant to be almost completely educational.

 

[Pseudo]

I seem to recall that this angle was why the story got made in the first place, as Doctor Who was meant to be almost completely educational.

No, it really wasn't. If you take the time to read the original documents you'll find that Doctor Who was the result of the BBC actively trying to create a science-fiction show.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IMO, Davros added another dimension to the Daleks. They weren't all the same anymore. You had the camp that presumably followed Davros as their recognized creator, and the other side that followed their own agenda--or the Emperor Dalek's--and presumably didn't acknowledge Davros even existed (how could they accept someone so flawed and imperfect as their leader?).

 

[Bones2]

I seem to recall that this angle was why the story got made in the first place, as Doctor Who was meant to be almost completely educational.

No, it really wasn't. If you take the time to read the original documents you'll find that Doctor Who was the result of the BBC actively trying to create a science-fiction show.

Well obviously it was meant to be science fiction, but it was definitely meant to have an educational aspect (hence all the historicals). I think Sydney Newman was quite against doing monster stories, and it was only this tragic aspect to the Daleks that meant it got made (as I recall from reading around of course, I could actually not really know what I'm talking about). Genesis of the Daleks turned the Daleks into standard madman-created Frankenstein types. Whether it's for the best or not, who can know, but it led to the Renegade/Imperial split which I thought was good stuff, and two of my top stories in Revelation and Remembrance. Squaring Dalek continuity from the first story on is also tricky, though some people have made reasonable attempts at it.

 

[Pseudo]

I seem to recall that this angle was why the story got made in the first place, as Doctor Who was meant to be almost completely educational.

No, it really wasn't. If you take the time to read the original documents you'll find that Doctor Who was the result of the BBC actively trying to create a science-fiction show.

Well obviously it was meant to be science fiction, but it was definitely meant to have an educational aspect (hence all the historicals). I think Sydney Newman was quite against doing monster stories, and it was only this tragic aspect to the Daleks that meant it got made (as I recall from reading around of course, I could actually not really know what I'm talking about). Genesis of the Daleks turned the Daleks into standard madman-created Frankenstein types. Whether it's for the best or not, who can know, but it led to the Renegade/Imperial split which I thought was good stuff, and two of my top stories in Revelation and Remembrance. Squaring Dalek continuity from the first story on is also tricky, though some people have made reasonable attempts at it.

None of which would mean that the show was conceived as being "completely educational" as you stated up thread.

 

[Bones2]

More educational than it became, put it that way. If you're being pedantic, do include the "almost" in "almost completely educational". That was going to be its core purpose.

 

[Pseudo]

More educational than it became, put it that way. If you're being pedantic, do include the "almost" in "almost completely educational". That was going to be its core purpose.

I don't think there's anything pedantic about preventing the dissemination of misapprehensions and falsehoods.

But you know, I guess I should let people make up their own facts because apparently people accuse you of being pedantic when you pull them up on such things.

 

[Candlelight]

Never pull a Doctor Who fan up on anything. They turn around and bite your ass off faster than you can say jelly baby.

 

[The Lensman]

I have to agree with Bones....it was my understanding that Doctor Who was meant to be educational in nature, with a focus on history and science....ergo, a time machine that can also double as a space ship. Sure, it was still an adventure show, but IIRC, there was a standing order at the outset of "no bug eyed monsters", as they wanted to focus on more meaningful fare.

 

[Bones2]

I have to agree with Bones....it was my understanding that Doctor Who was meant to be educational in nature, with a focus on history and science....ergo, a time machine that can also double as a space ship. Sure, it was still an adventure show, but IIRC, there was a standing order at the outset of "no bug eyed monsters", as they wanted to focus on more meaningful fare.

Yeah, exactly.

Why someone would try and start an argument with me about that, I don't know. Probably because I dislike RTD.

 

[Pseudo]

I have to agree with Bones....it was my understanding that Doctor Who was meant to be educational in nature, with a focus on history and science....ergo, a time machine that can also double as a space ship. Sure, it was still an adventure show, but IIRC, there was a standing order at the outset of "no bug eyed monsters", as they wanted to focus on more meaningful fare.

Nope, if you read the documents that I linked to up thread Doctor Who was conceived as a science fiction show that would have educational elements, not as Bones said "completely educational."

Yeah, exactly.

Why someone would try and start an argument with me about that, I don't know. Probably because I dislike RTD.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I didn't start an argument. I told you you were wrong in your assertion and provided you with supporting documentary evidence. And then rather than admit that you were incorrect you decided to change the goal posts.

 

[Bones2]

I said "almost completely educational". Being educational was going to be its main thing. History and that. Why's this become an argument?

 

[starsuperion]

this Dalek thread has gone off it's intended message..

once again DAVROS!!!!!!!

 

[Trevacious]

Of course we also have him do this in Stolen Earth/Journey's End ('cloned' out of his own DNA), but even these Daleks don't seem to trust him entirely, as the Tenth Doctor notes he's the Dalek's "pet". So he's not really their leader at any point, really.

Yeah, their bottom line always comes back to that stated near the end of Genesis Of The Daleks:

"We obey no one. We are the superior beings. Exterminate!"

Davros seemed so much madder in Journey's End, I've often wondered if he was totally lying to the Daleks, that they should think they can survive in a shelter to become the only living beings in existence.

From the way Davros described the reality bomb, it sounded to me like there wasn't gonna BE any existence to live in, once the bomb did its work. I figured he was out for revenge against Everything there IS, Daleks included.

It would be funny to see what the Daleks would do with themselves if they ever Did win at last. Every other living being lies dead. Now what? Sing "Daleks are Supreme" for the rest of time? Grow bored? Exterminate each other? Recreate the universe, start over again?

I wonder if there's another twist for the Daleks -- what if they recognized another species as Superior for a change? Or is that impossible if they're anything but pure Dalek?

And if they met something to which they felt inferior, would they be as subservient as the RTD Daleks became next to the newer, "purer" models?

NuDalek: "You are Inferior"
OldDalek: "Yes!"