Does anyone really think 2017 will break the mold?

[Arrrrgggh]

Who the hell are all these security personnel then? Worf, Yar, Tuvok? All the redshirst in TOS.

You mean the tactical officers who are basically just the guy who launches torpedos and repeats what the ship's computer would normally say when an intruder is detected? And the red shirts who are either pathetically trained or completely inept, bumbling fools? Yeah, I don't consider either of those marines, let alone a realistic take on them.

 

[Longinus]

You mean the tactical officers who are basically just the guy who launches torpedos and repeats what the ship's computer would normally say when an intruder is detected? And the red shirts who are either pathetically trained or completely inept, bumbling fools? Yeah, I don't consider either of those marines, let alone a realistic take on them.

The security personnel certainly are trained soldiers. They may come across as bumbling fools, as that's their role in the narrative. Calling them 'marines' will not change that.

 

[Shalashaska]

Yes.

Why?

This guy.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

The security personnel certainly are trained soldiers. They may come across as bumbling fools, as that's their role in the narrative. Calling them 'marines' will not change that.

Try reading everything I've written as opposed to what you seem to desperately wish I had written. I'll even make it easy for you: "Yeah, I don't consider either of those marines, let alone a realistic take on them." Pay particularly close attention to the last part of the sentence.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Well if the 2017 series breaks the mold a contingent of fans will grab their torches and pitchforks demanding a return to the "Star Trek we all know and love."
If it doesn't break the mold then a contingent of fans will condemn it for "being derivative and timid, unwilling to take the big risk and strike out boldly where no Trek series has gone before."

Me? I just want new Trek on the smallish screen again. Please.

 

[Longinus]

Try reading everything I've written as opposed to what you seem to desperately wish I had written. I'll even make it easy for you: "Yeah, I don't consider either of those marines, let alone a realistic take on them." Pay particularly close attention to the last part of the sentence.

It's a TV show, it won't be realistic.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I thought fiction was REAL! Dang it.

 

[Kor]

It will break the mold in the sense that it will certainly be like other contemporary 2017 television shows in terms of structure, characterization, production values, etc. So it will be different from previous Trek series.

Kor

 

[Arrrrgggh]

It's a TV show, it won't be realistic.

Funny, Enterprise was far closer than any other series had been, even though they screwed it up, too. And there's plenty of shows that offer up a realistic (and I'm sure you know that when I say that, I mean believable as opposed to completely realistic in every possible way, no matter how obtuse you're trying to be to prove whatever asinine point you're trying to make) take on such things. The Last Ship comes immediately to mind.

 

[fireproof78]

Funny, Enterprise was far closer than any other series had been, even though they screwed it up, too. And there's plenty of shows that offer up a realistic (and I'm sure you know that when I say that, I mean believable as opposed to completely realistic in every possible way, no matter how obtuse you're trying to be to prove whatever asinine point you're trying to make) take on such things. The Last Ship comes immediately to mind.

I liked the Enterprise concept of the ship and uniforms for how much of a submarine looked, as well as the Kelvin for those very reasons.

As for Marines, Starfleet Security personnel always struck me as capable of defending a ship and provide armed guards against ship invaders, but were lacking in terms of ground support or tactics involving ground combat. Having read a number of different concepts for Marines, as well as the inclusion of the M.A.C.O. on ENT, I can see the argument for both sides.

For me, Marines would simply be ground force specialists, a division of Starfleet Security, but called Marines because, why not? It sounds cool.

 

[OpenMaw]

It would be nice to see something similar to the MACOs again. I really thought they were a well conceived and fairly well executed piece of Enterprise in the third season. For the first time we had security in a Trek show that looked like it could actually do that job.

Not to mention i'm a fan of putting more Napoleonic/Hornblower influences into Trek, and having some "red coats" on the ship is more of that flavor to me. By that I mean, making them distinct from the regular crew.

The problem with security guys outside of the TMP movies, is that they literally feel like "Extras with phasers on their hips" and in no way do they feel like they're equipped for anything that any other crew member couldn't also tackle.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Unless these "Marines" are the focus of the show I don't see them being any more "competent" than their predecessors

 

[Longinus]

Unless these "Marines" are the focus of the show I don't see them being any more "competent" than their predecessors

Yeah, this is exactly what I tried to say.

 

[eyeresist]

Unless these "Marines" are the focus of the show I don't see them being any more "competent" than their predecessors

The original redshirts wandered around looking dazed, and their deaths were quite hapless. Marines would presumably be combat alert and put up a bit of a fight, thus giving the threat a bit more sense of danger.

I have an image in mind now of a MACO being swallowed by a giant gelatinous slug, and as it absorbs him he is firing his phaser into it like a badass.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The original redshirts wandered around looking dazed, and their deaths were quite hapless. Marines would presumably be combat alert and put up a bit of a fight, thus giving the threat a bit more sense of danger.

I have an image in mind now of a MACO being swallowed by a giant gelatinous slug, and as it absorbs him he is firing his phaser into it like a badass.

Only if they're written that way. If they aren't the heroes they wont be "competent", combat alert or able to put up a bit of a fight.

 

[eyeresist]

Only if they're written that way. If they aren't the heroes they wont be "competent", combat alert or able to put up a bit of a fight.

I think you are imagining that ST2017 won't be able to help being a replica of previous series, with all their flaws. But there are better ways to deal with redshirts than their stilted approach.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

It depends. For the 60s, I think the redshirts on TOS weren't that bad. They got in a couple scuffles. But you go to TNG era and it seems these guys only know how to use a phaser. There's barely any serious hand to hand. Sure, there's the big fight in OPS on DS9 with the Klingons, but those were our leads. All the security guys on the
promenade were chasing Klingons with phasers while getting eviscerated.

They all seem kind of soft if that's the right word. If I were an ambassador in hostile territory, I wouldn't feel safe with them. The MACOs on Enterprise though, I thought they were great --- and as an aside, I don't think you can go wrong with Steven Culp (Major Hayes) .

Call 'em Marines, MACOs, SWAT, SEAL Team 47, or whatever. I thought it interesting on Enterprise to have the MACOs.

EDIT TO ADD:
It's kind of the same thing with the ship battles as well. The security guys in TNG fight the same way their ships fight in space. Slow, stilted, and awkward. Best we got was the OMFG Badass Martian Defense Perimeter. I would also note that every other culture was a bit more aggressive in their ground/hand to hand tactics than Starfleet security. It makes no sense that those Galaxy Class hall monitors were also involved in ground security.

FINAL EDIT, I swear:
With MACOs, the Kazon don't take Voyager either. Major Hayes would have made quick work of them and I'd even say Lt. Reed would have held his own.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I'd bet good money that it won't be the Abrams-verse. For financial reasons alone - CBS would have to pay Paramount I think to use it.

But if it is Abrams-verse, I don't see it being concurrent with the films. Before or after, but not side-by-side. IDK why...

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Inside information

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think you are imagining that ST2017 won't be able to help being a replica of previous series, with all their flaws. But there are better ways to deal with redshirts than their stilted approach.

It not just a Trek thing. Its common through out fiction. The characters are only as good as the writers allow them to be. There will always be cannon fodder and "idiots" who make our heroes look good

 

[eyeresist]

It not just a Trek thing. Its common through out fiction. The characters are only as good as the writers allow them to be. There will always be cannon fodder and "idiots" who make our heroes look good

I'd point to the MACOs in ENT season 3 as an improvement on traditional redshirts. They were reliable in combat, and not just cannon fodder.
I'm thinking of a particular scene, in the first ep of season 3 I think, when the MACOs rappelled into a mine to save the day. That was a pretty cool scene, and didn't take anything away from the heroes.
(Now inevitably someone will complain about there being too much action in ENT, to which I will say (a) this was the longest combat scene in the whole series, and (b) previous shows had attempted similar things but mostly didn't have the money or resources to pull them off.)
Point is: the security team should be as reliable a resource for the captain as the engineering or medical teams are. Competent trained professionals who are deployed as necessary. Not disposable mooks.

Here's the clip:

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