Does anyone like TMP uniforms?

[fireproof78]

When Spock once mentioned planned communities I never took that to mean planned societies as in everyone already had a place slotted for them--similar to what was seen in TNG's "Masterpiece Society." I always thought that to mean that the physical aspeccts of communities were planned such as to be reasonably efficient and in harmony with natural environments.

And certainly communities would have to be planned out if we're talking about ones within artificial environments such as would be the case colonizing worlds like Mars.

While human beings do like to talk about things being well planned out the reality is we get cranky without a bit of disorder. Perfection cane be a bit unnerving at times.

That's a fair point. I don't know if the Federation at large is as controlled in terms of roles, but that was my interpretation of the statement. And this could be wrong, but, as discussed, planning out colonies on other worlds requires a large degree of planning and control.

Also, as a follow up, I don't think of it as a preordained slot where you have to fill X role for the rest of your life, so much as people have their strengths and they move towards using those strengths to improve the overall community. Someone who is very analytical might do well working on the Atlantis project mentioned in TNG. Also, there is still room for "rebels" such as Robert Picard's vineyard.

 

[tim0122]

Not everyone wants to command. Some want to be scientists, others explorers or engineers.

Case in point, Scotty. When he appears in TNG, he says while he is a captain by rank, he only ever wanted to be an engineer. Another good example is Chief O'Brien (another engineer oddly enough), who says at one point that he never excepts promotions.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Case in point, Scotty. When he appears in TNG, he says while he is a captain by rank, he only ever wanted to be an engineer. Another good example is Chief O'Brien (another engineer oddly enough), who says at one point that he never excepts promotions.

But he does accept demotions, sine he went from a Lieutenant to a CPO.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But "command track" is not a real-world thing nor apparently a Trek thing,

It's definitely a Trek thing. We see people in the command division, we see people in the sciences division, engineering, security, etc. A track is simply a career path, and most of us actually do follow a career track in the real-world, even if it's not particularly one some of us love or initially started on.

Case in point, Scotty. When he appears in TNG, he says while he is a captain by rank, he only ever wanted to be an engineer. Another good example is Chief O'Brien (another engineer oddly enough), who says at one point that he never excepts promotions.

Yep. People have different reasons for joining Starfleet, and it might even be fair to say that not all them have command of a starship as their ultimate goal.

 

[J.T.B.]

It's definitely a Trek thing. We see people in the command division, we see people in the sciences division, engineering, security, etc. A track is simply a career path, and most of us actually do follow a career track in the real-world, even if it's not particularly one some of us love or initially started on.

As I said earlier, commanding Starfleet ships has been show repeatedly to have little or nothing to do with being from the "command division." AFAIK the term "command track" has never been used in Trek, nor there has been anything to indicate that a lieutenant would be more "on track" to become a captain than a lieutenant commander of the same division.

 

[Kor]

What about that time when Troi took the command test in which she was expected to send Geordi to his doom? Was she then on track to possibly have a command role someday?

Kor

 

[Lance]

But "command track" is not a real-world thing nor apparently a Trek thing, where it was shown time and again that officers don't have to work in a particular department to be in line of command. And if the idea is that Starfleet is screening officers for ship command at ensign grade, well... that just doesn't seem likely. And even if that was the case, if anyone would be on the path to ship command it would be Sulu.

"Officer of the deck" is a US Navy term; the British use "officer of the watch." It is the captain's "representative" in immediate control of the ship (captains are always on duty, they don't stand a particular watch). This can be any officer, even quite junior ones, as long as they have the qualification. Again, not a term used in Trek, nor has watch-command qualification been indicated by the uniform.



Yes, and indeed there is little evidence of anything like a "command track" in Starfleet. In that respect it seems to be more like a real life navy, where officers accumulate qualifications and experience and are evaluated for positions of increasing responsibility based on their success at lower levels.



Plenty of examples. Spock from the sciences division, of course. Sulu the science division astrophysicist went to helmsman and eventual ship command. Scotty was qualified to take command and did so numerous times. Chekov from navigation to security to XO and qualified as a science officer. Kirk apparently worked in the engineering department early in his career. Will Decker was a qualified science officer.

I like this too.

Yeah, I was kind of thinking along these lines. It seems to me that even though somebody might show an instant aptitude for being a leader, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be locked on that path. So many of the characters as you described seem to have had qualifications outside the command structure, and the Finney Incident would seem to indicate Kirk's involvement in engineering at some stage in his life.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The flaw with the TMP colour scheme is that while it might make more real world sense (to those who understand it) it's not immediately understandable to the general audience. While simplified the TOS colour scheme was a nice and quick visual cue to who belonged where. They should have built on that rather than rethinking the whole idea.

This is a case where striving for something realistic went too far.

It's possible Roddenberry took cinematic advice from Robert Wise on how the colors should be depicted. Maybe Wise thought those greys, beige, and browns were a way to show the Trek universe had grown. The colors for the uniforms were hard to like, but the design was faithful to Star Trek on TV.

 

[Warped9]

Kirk's background could suggest him doing stints in diverse areas as a measure in giving him a more thorough understanding of various ship's operations. His knowledge would go beyond something he has read in some tech manual.

We know he has some background in engineering (re: "Court Martial"). We know he has some background in security (re: "Obsession"). We know he has background in on-site planetary surveys (re: "A Private Little War"). We know he is ranked as a command pilot with a background in helm and navigation (re: "The Immunity Syndrome"). To run a starship he has to have had some measure of administrative background. We know he has previous ship command experience (re: "Where No Man Has Gone Before.")

For all his innate talents Kirk gained his knowledge and experience hand-on and through diverse tasks.

Now any number of officers could have similar records. So Kirk would have to exhibit other qualities that earmarked him as a leader--the guy you wanted to be making the decisions in a variety of situations, particularly in times of crises.

What's the difference between Kirk and Spock and Scotty? Scotty and Spock each have knowledge and expertise far exceeding Kirk's in specific areas. But Kirk possesses the ability to rapidly weigh and prioritize options and usually make the most optimum decisions.

 

[C.E. Evans]

As I said earlier, commanding Starfleet ships has been show repeatedly to have little or nothing to do with being from the "command division."

And yet, there is still a command division (any argument to the contrary is a matter of semantics--it's still the division which produces starship captains). Some officers aspire for command from the start and work towards that goal, while others go into other tracks like engineering, security, sciences, etc. Trek has shown that people can move from one track to another, but there are also direct paths that people do follow, regardless if it is towards being a starship captain, a chief engineer, or a doctor.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As I said earlier, commanding Starfleet ships has been show repeatedly to have little or nothing to do with being from the "command division." AFAIK the term "command track" has never been used in Trek, nor there has been anything to indicate that a lieutenant would be more "on track" to become a captain than a lieutenant commander of the same division.

Has "command division" ever been used in Star Trek?

We see characters "hop" divisions. Riley "came up" from engineering. Lavelle is a redshirt going for an Operations job. And of course LaForge and Worf who went from red to gold.

 

[Pauln6]

When you line them all up they don't look too bad with TMP colours on their collars. I really wish they'd made a set of TMP figures though!

 

[TheAlmanac]

Has "command division" ever been used in Star Trek?

The example that comes to mind first is in "Trials and Tribble-ations," where Sisko remarks on the uniform colour scheme in TOS versus the TNG era: "In the old days, operations officers wore red, command officers wore gold."

We see characters "hop" divisions. Riley "came up" from engineering. Lavelle is a redshirt going for an Operations job. And of course LaForge and Worf who went from red to gold.

...and back to red, eventually, on DS9. I'm sure people can come up with various examples from that series where Worf's status in the command track is talked about explicitly.

 

[fireproof78]

The example that comes to mind first is in "Trials and Tribble-ations," where Sisko remarks on the uniform colour scheme in TOS versus the TNG era: "In the old days, operations officers wore red, command officers wore gold."


...and back to red, eventually, on DS9. I'm sure people can come up with various examples from that series where Worf's status in the command track is talked about explicitly.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yeah, I was kind of thinking along these lines. It seems to me that even though somebody might show an instant aptitude for being a leader, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be locked on that path. So many of the characters as you described seem to have had qualifications outside the command structure, and the Finney Incident would seem to indicate Kirk's involvement in engineering at some stage in his life.

Whether the creators were conscious of it or not, engineering experience being pre-requisite for command is a very US Navy thing. When the old Engineering Corps was abolished at the turn of the last century it was basically decided that line officers needed thorough knowledge of steam and electrical power just as they had once had of wind and sails. It is very rare to find a USN black shoe (non-aviation) ship CO that has not passed through one of the main engineering department positions (chief engineer, main propulsion assistant, damage control assistant, electrical officer etc.) in his/her career. The British and lot of other navies kept engineers as a separate branch, and there has been some debate over which way is better over the years, but the USN is happy with its system and is not going to change.

And yet, there is still a command division (any argument to the contrary is a matter of semantics--it's still the division which produces starship captains). Some officers aspire for command from the start and work towards that goal, while others go into other tracks like engineering, security, sciences, etc. Trek has shown that people can move from one track to another, but there are also direct paths that people do follow, regardless if it is towards being a starship captain, a chief engineer, or a doctor.

Which does not really address what I was talking about: the idea that the uniforms indicated that Ilia was on a "command track" and Sulu was not.

Has "command division" ever been used in Star Trek?

Nope, but it's pretty old non-screen canon, originating fromTMoST. I have speculated before that something like "control division" might have caused less confusion. And indeed in TMP and TWOK the CO and XO got their own color.

When you line them all up they don't look too bad with TMP colours on their collars. I really wish they'd made a set of TMP figures though!

There was the 1979 Mego stuff! Decker had a yellow uniform, IIRC.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Which does not really address what I was talking about: the idea that the uniforms indicated that Ilia was on a "command track" and Sulu was not.

There's no reason to assume an officer in a command division uniform isn't, well, in the command division. Conversely, Sulu's uniform just indicates he's a bridge officer, but doesn't mean that his rank is worthless or that he can't be a captain in the future. The TMP uniforms merely established more specialization among personnel.

Nope, but it's pretty old non-screen canon, originating fromTMoST.

Command was established as a division in DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations," although most folks probably figured out since TOS it was the department where captains and admirals came from.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except when it wasn't. Kirks court martial was conducted by a Commodore and three Captains. Only one was a Goldshirt.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Except when it wasn't. Kirks court martial was conducted by a Commodore and three Captains. Only one was a Goldshirt.

And Admiral Toddman in DS9 wore an operations uniform, but aside from ENT, we still see most captains and admirals in similar colored uniforms (although Scotty still got to wear whatever he liked). I always liked to think that there were captains and admirals from sciences, engineering, medical, etc., that wore the uniform colors of their departments but it was just a case that we never got to see that many of them throughout Trek.

 

[Warped9]

Part of the problem was--as has been mentioned before--costume application could just as easily be applied based on other considerations besides what division, section, department, whatever the character should realistically be part of. It was, after all, a television show and not a documentary on Starfleet organization.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hollywood considerations are pretty much without saying, because it generally follows the idea of "who looks better in what color," but from an "in-universe" aspect, it really isn't that difficult to sort things out, especially if we go with the idea of cross-trained personnel and related disciplines. The TWOK uniforms even took it a step further by having some personnel wear two colors (Saavik in Star Trek III wore a white undershirt and shoulder tab, but her left sleeve service bar had a wide section that was the same grayish-purple (sciences?) color that Chekov and Uhura wore.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=40697&fullsize=1
A few other personnel at Starfleet HQ in Star Trek IV also sported more than one department color on their uniforms).
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=42608&fullsize=1