Does anyone like TMP uniforms?

[fireproof78]

Agree.
Yes, these colors on TMP uniforms would have looked great and better tied the continuity of TOS to TMP production design.

I also agree, to a certain point. Of the uniform designs, the TMP ones certainly had variants that I really enjoyed.

I don't mind the different colors of TMP, but I would have preferred some connection to the prior colors.I don't mind adding more colors (TWoK certainly did) but I would like to be able to follow it to some degree. Which, sorry, I didn't follow it until I read the guides. Just because it makes sense in universe doesn't mean that some concession has to be done for the viewing audience.

The other uniform that I found odd was the station uniform, which reminded me a lot of the exercise clothing from TOS and TWoK. I get that the uniforms are supposed to be less militarized, which is fine by me, but that strikes me as a little bit too casual. Though, that could just be my 21st century sensibilities

 

[FormerLurker]

The station uniform may well have been some kind of scrub uniform that the station commander allowed his crew to wear all the time, rather than just when they have to do grunt work. All the station personnel may have had standard uniforms, and just didn't wear them (non-canon speculation, but it does seem to fit). That station wasn't very big anyway. Oh, they had this huge listening array, but the crew compartments were quite small. Such close quarters may have bred familiarity.

 

[Warped9]

The flaw with the TMP colour scheme is that while it might make more real world sense (to those who understand it) it's not immediately understandable to the general audience. While simplified the TOS colour scheme was a nice and quick visual cue to who belonged where. They should have built on that rather than rethinking the whole idea.

This is a case where striving for something realistic went too far.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I like them...


...when compared to those awful TNG film uniforms (later worked into D.S.9.). I'll take them over the Voyager designs as well. Crotch buldge and all.

 

[drt]

The flaw with the TMP colour scheme is that while it might make more real world sense (to those who understand it) it's not immediately understandable to the general audience. While simplified the TOS colour scheme was a nice and quick visual cue to who belonged where. They should have built on that rather than rethinking the whole idea.

This is a case where striving for something realistic went too far.

It also doesn't help matters that they then likely placed people into particular colored uniforms for Hollywood reasons, i.e. that color looked better with the actors hair/skin tone then the color they were "supposed" to wear.

 

[Warped9]

It also doesn't help matters that they then likely placed people into particular colored uniforms for Hollywood reasons, i.e. that color looked better with the actors hair/skin tone then the color they were "supposed" to wear.

Well that was some of the reasoning behind putting Uhura in red during TOS. She was initially in gold which put her in the Command section. Yet it was felt that not only did the red appear to suit her better but it also added more variety in the colour palette on the bridge. Subsequently Communications became part of Support Services rather than being part of Command, just because of a costume colour change.

 

[J.T.B.]

A simple case of a different uniform with different division colors. Ilia may have been a navigator, but she was probably a command track (or basic deck) officer first and foremost, with duties that may not have been limited to the bridge or any section of the ship. In comparison, Sulu and Uhura were considered bridge officers more than anything else. It's just the way things were divided back then with a lot more specialization.

Command track officer? Basic deck officer? Never heard of them. I suppose it's possible but I really don't think they went to the trouble of thinking up new categories of officers to fit into some scheme for the movie's costumes. It fits the evidence just as well and is simpler to suppose that personnel were allowed to wear what they wanted from a certain "menu" of uniforms.

Well that was some of the reasoning behind putting Uhura in red during TOS. She was initially in gold which put her in the Command section. Yet it was felt that not only did the red appear to suit her better but it also added more variety in the colour palette on the bridge. Subsequently Communications became part of Support Services rather than being part of Command, just because of a costume colour change.

Yes, it was practically Starfleet tradition from TOS that the department color "rules" were made to be broken. Which is understandable for a TV show but it does raise the question of what in-universe practical use they are in the first place.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Command track officer? Basic deck officer? Never heard of them.

A command track officer should be self-explanatory: an officer in the command division, especially one moving towards a captaincy or the admiralty. Deck officer is simply another way of saying "officer of the deck" (or in Trek, an officer in charge of the bridge in the absence of the captain and first officer).

 

[Pauln6]

Just watched STII-IV on UK Channel 5. Dug out my old TWoK action figures for my godson to play with. I made a few customs to pad them out (Chapel, Rand, Decker, Ilia, Andorian, Zaranite, and Saurian) and I'd forgotten that I had swapped the heads around to make the heights of the figures more commensurate with the actors, which meant I need to repaint some of the collars. I decided to paint the collars using TMP colours, since the department divisions made more sense to me, so I ended up with Scotty and Rand in red, Ilia and Uhura in yellow, and Spock in orange, while Chekov can keep his grey, Sulu keeps his yellow, and McCoy and Chapel keep their green. They are a work in progress though since the rank insignia are still wrong. Still, Scotty finished TVH with a uniform of a commander and Rand's rank yo-yos all over the place on screen.

 

[Relayer1]

I loved them. They're my preferred Trek uniforms.

 

[Lance]

A command track officer should be self-explanatory: an officer in the command division, especially one moving towards a captaincy or the admiralty. Deck officer is simply another way of saying "officer of the deck" (or in Trek, an officer in charge of the bridge in the absence of the captain and first officer).

Not exactly on-topic, but just to pick up on this interesting line of discussion....

One of the oddest contradictions in the Trek verse for me is the notion that humanity is said to be above some of the hang-ups we have these days, that 'material things' don't matter to them, and that they don't work for money but merely for the betterment of their combined knowledge, etc etc.... but Starfleet has got a defined command structure, and people apparently do have ambition and will fight each other for the chance to go up the ranks. We even see that from time to time.

In a truly egalitarian society, which is the one Star Trek proposes to show us most of the time, would not everybody be potentially on a 'command track', because the concept of recognizing the superiority or inferiority of others would be an outdated concept? The very idea of 'Cadet Joe has got a career path in mind, he wants to be on the Command Track' seems oddly out-of-keeping with a universe where we're told people probably shouldn't even be looking at themselves in those terms.

Of course, you can't show a military (or even a quasi-military) without infering that "some people are MORE equal than others".

I kind of like the concept of a Worf.... somebody who jumped from place to place and eventually had the skills necessary to be a great leader.... or even Janeway, who was in Sciences before becoming a Captain.... rather than people kind of locking themselves into the path of being a starship commander from the heave-ho.

 

[fireproof78]

Not exactly on-topic, but just to pick up on this interesting line of discussion....

One of the oddest contradictions in the Trek verse for me is the notion that humanity is said to be above some of the hang-ups we have these days, that 'material things' don't matter to them, and that they don't work for money but merely for the betterment of their combined knowledge, etc etc.... but Starfleet has got a defined command structure, and people apparently do have ambition and will fight each other for the chance to go up the ranks. We even see that from time to time.

In a truly egalitarian society, which is the one Star Trek proposes to show us most of the time, would not everybody be potentially on a 'command track', because the concept of recognizing the superiority or inferiority of others would be an outdated concept? The very idea of 'Cadet Joe has got a career path in mind, he wants to be on the Command Track' seems oddly out-of-keeping with a universe where we're told people probably shouldn't even be looking at themselves in those terms.

Of course, you can't show a military (or even a quasi-military) without infering that "some people are MORE equal than others".

I kind of like the concept of a Worf.... somebody who jumped from place to place and eventually had the skills necessary to be a great leader.... or even Janeway, who was in Sciences before becoming a Captain.... rather than people kind of locking themselves into the path of being a starship commander from the heave-ho.

This is an interesting thought, though I don't think that is quite the intention or the result in Starfleet.

The idea of the Federation, as well as Starfleet, is not just egalitarian, in that everyone can become a captain, but that everyone has a place to build up the greater society. So, on the one had, yes, people can become command level officers from different tracks (Janeway, Spock, Worf-despite Eddington's claims to the contrary) but they also have specific roles and talents to fill. Even Spock describes Federation society as "pre-planned" indicating a level of control and structure of roles:

SPOCK: There are many who are … uncomfortable … with what we have created. It is almost a biological rebellion. A profound revulsion against the planned communities; the programming; the sterilized, artfully balanced atmospheres. They hunger for an Eden where spring comes.

The idea also that humanity works to better themselves may be an indication that people go with their strengths. Not everyone is a leader, or wants to lead, so the idea of being on the command track simply doesn't appeal to them.

So, I see your point, but disagree to, in that Starfleet does seem to want people in an organized role. I'm guessing if people don't like that ordered life, then Starfleet isn't for them.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Maybe TMP uniforms with TOS departments color just on one sleeve like Space:1999.
http://www.crazyabouttv.com/Images/space1999.jpg

I think you just finally made me understand why I have never like the TMP uniforms. It's not that they were bad per se. Just that they were so generic to the era. Grey and Earth tone Pajama's seemed all the rage in SciFi at the time. And the TMP uniforms felt generic even by those standards. As you say Space 1999 captured the aesthetic but did it better. While I agree that the WoK and later more formal uniforms were awful when looked at as daily ship board wear, at least they stood out from the crowd. They caught the eye while still communicating "uniformity and formality". The TMP grey and beige suits just didn't do it. There were a few good designs in there that they should have picked up and ran with and a ton of others that were better left in the costume shop. (And a special place in hell for whoever decided that Stephen Collins suit the "full package". Yeah that's a bit of strangeness that really does not age well all things considered.)

 

[Warped9]

Many years ago I saw the actual TMP costumes on display, and in person they're actually quite nice. Sadly it didn't really translate on film.

Part of their flaw is they're too "smooth and sleek" in concept and they aimed for something too realistically muted. Set against the greyish interiors of an incomplete ship a lot of it can come across as blah. Either make the ship interiors more coloured or make the uniforms more coloured to get more visual texture and greater palette on the screen.

Again I think they leaned a bit too much in the direction of making a "science fiction film" and forgot the Star Trek part to a degree. They were a little too intent on distancing themselves from Trek's television roots.

 

[C.E. Evans]

In a truly egalitarian society, which is the one Star Trek proposes to show us most of the time, would not everybody be potentially on a 'command track', because the concept of recognizing the superiority or inferiority of others would be an outdated concept?

Not everyone wants to command. Some want to be scientists, others explorers or engineers.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Part of their flaw is they're too "smooth and sleek" in concept and they aimed for something too realistically muted. Set against the greyish interiors of an incomplete ship a lot of it can come across as blah. Either make the ship interiors more coloured or make the uniforms more coloured to get more visual texture and greater palette on the screen.

Apparently that was very intentional, as they wanted to emphasize the actor's faces and not have the uniforms distract from them.

Again I think they leaned a bit too much in the direction of making a "science fiction film" and forgot the Star Trek part to a degree. They were a little too intent on distancing themselves from Trek's television roots.

Agreed!

 

[Warped9]

Apparently that was very intentional, as they wanted to emphasize the actor's faces and not have the uniforms distract from them.

Yes, and it backfired on them because folks have been griping about the muted palette since the film's release.

 

[Lance]

This is an interesting thought, though I don't think that is quite the intention or the result in Starfleet.

The idea of the Federation, as well as Starfleet, is not just egalitarian, in that everyone can become a captain, but that everyone has a place to build up the greater society. So, on the one had, yes, people can become command level officers from different tracks (Janeway, Spock, Worf-despite Eddington's claims to the contrary) but they also have specific roles and talents to fill. Even Spock describes Federation society as "pre-planned" indicating a level of control and structure of roles:

SPOCK: There are many who are … uncomfortable … with what we have created. It is almost a biological rebellion. A profound revulsion against the planned communities; the programming; the sterilized, artfully balanced atmospheres. They hunger for an Eden where spring comes.

The idea also that humanity works to better themselves may be an indication that people go with their strengths. Not everyone is a leader, or wants to lead, so the idea of being on the command track simply doesn't appeal to them.

So, I see your point, but disagree to, in that Starfleet does seem to want people in an organized role. I'm guessing if people don't like that ordered life, then Starfleet isn't for them.

I must say, I do like this answer. It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Warped9]

When Spock once mentioned planned communities I never took that to mean planned societies as in everyone already had a place slotted for them--similar to what was seen in TNG's "Masterpiece Society." I always thought that to mean that the physical aspeccts of communities were planned such as to be reasonably efficient and in harmony with natural environments.

And certainly communities would have to be planned out if we're talking about ones within artificial environments such as would be the case colonizing worlds like Mars.

While human beings do like to talk about things being well planned out the reality is we get cranky without a bit of disorder. Perfection cane be a bit unnerving at times.

 

[J.T.B.]

A command track officer should be self-explanatory: an officer in the command division, especially one moving towards a captaincy or the admiralty. Deck officer is simply another way of saying "officer of the deck" (or in Trek, an officer in charge of the bridge in the absence of the captain and first officer).

But "command track" is not a real-world thing nor apparently a Trek thing, where it was shown time and again that officers don't have to work in a particular department to be in line of command. And if the idea is that Starfleet is screening officers for ship command at ensign grade, well... that just doesn't seem likely. And even if that was the case, if anyone would be on the path to ship command it would be Sulu.

"Officer of the deck" is a US Navy term; the British use "officer of the watch." It is the captain's "representative" in immediate control of the ship (captains are always on duty, they don't stand a particular watch). This can be any officer, even quite junior ones, as long as they have the qualification. Again, not a term used in Trek, nor has watch-command qualification been indicated by the uniform.

In a truly egalitarian society, which is the one Star Trek proposes to show us most of the time, would not everybody be potentially on a 'command track', because the concept of recognizing the superiority or inferiority of others would be an outdated concept? The very idea of 'Cadet Joe has got a career path in mind, he wants to be on the Command Track' seems oddly out-of-keeping with a universe where we're told people probably shouldn't even be looking at themselves in those terms.

Yes, and indeed there is little evidence of anything like a "command track" in Starfleet. In that respect it seems to be more like a real life navy, where officers accumulate qualifications and experience and are evaluated for positions of increasing responsibility based on their success at lower levels.

I kind of like the concept of a Worf.... somebody who jumped from place to place and eventually had the skills necessary to be a great leader.... or even Janeway, who was in Sciences before becoming a Captain.... rather than people kind of locking themselves into the path of being a starship commander from the heave-ho.

Plenty of examples. Spock from the sciences division, of course. Sulu the science division astrophysicist went to helmsman and eventual ship command. Scotty was qualified to take command and did so numerous times. Chekov from navigation to security to XO and qualified as a science officer. Kirk apparently worked in the engineering department early in his career. Will Decker was a qualified science officer.