does anyone know if this plot hole was ever explained in books..

[Search4]

At the end, its a cheap "omigod" when only the Enterprise can do something. I don't buy it, but okay. No better than "with our primary fleet engaged in the Laurentian system" in terms of plot.

I'd actually prefer the alternative. f Starfleet had seriously engaged with V'ger, the effort probably would have ended like the Klingon/Epsilon encounters. That would have greatly raised the stakes for Spock figuring out how to communicate.

Isn't that the TMP / XI question - why should the Enterprise survive despite all other attempts?

("Why is this ship different than all other ships"?)

 

[JarodRussell]

Well, there are only two possibilities for the Enterprise to get involved in a mission. Either they discover the threat by themselves, or they are the only ship in range. The latter is only an unneccessary justification why Starfleet tells them: "Go, fetch."

You don't complain about crime novels, where the cop gets the case because he stumbled over it or is simply assigned to it without further questions being asked. There you never get the excuse "You take the case because the other guy is on holidays." It's simply his job. And so is it the Enterprise's job to go on a mission.

 

[Christopher]

Isn't that the TMP / XI question - why should the Enterprise survive despite all other attempts?

In TMP's case, it was because they had Spock aboard to recognize V'Ger's communication signals and respond to them, and then to meld with V'Ger to gain intelligence. And because Decker was willing to sacrifice himself. Ironically, even though Kirk insisted he had to be in charge, he didn't really contribute that much in the final analysis.

In ST XI, again it comes down to Spock. Nero recognized the Enterprise's registry just in time to cancel the firing order. He wanted both Spocks alive to witness Vulcan's destruction. And that respite gave the crew the time they needed to bond as a team and figure out a way to stop Nero.

 

[Timo]

Note the situation in ST:TMP versus several other threats to Earth. Having no starships stationed at home base (supposing warfare of the era hinges on starships) is a sensible strategy, if ships can be summoned to defend home base when needed. But that depends on the time factor. If the enemy approaches at less than critical speed, then your ships can sail to defend the base in time. But if the enemy approaches faster, they cannot.

In "Best of Both Worlds", Earth had lots of advance warning. When our heroes first encountered the Borg ship, "closest help" was six days away. Even if that referred to ships significantly slower than the E-D or the Borg Cube, this still necessarily means Earth was days away from the initial engagement site. And the Borg intentions were made immediately clear after that engagement, as they set a beeline course for the UFP capital world. So, days of advance warning.

Result? A defensive fleet of at least forty starships, perhaps more.

In ST4, we are given no explicit timescale. However, we know it took Kirk and pals four days to get from Earth to Vulcan in the first movie - so probably at least that long in the rickety Klingon boat, and probably more, to do the opposite trip. The Whale Probe and its course are first observed by Starfleet before Kirk sets sail for Earth, and the Probe arrives there not long before Kirk does. So again the timescale is something like three-four days to mount a defense for Earth.

Result? At least three starships to intercept the Probe en route, plus several lesser vessels, and then at least one starship on Earth for last ditch defense.

In contrast, in TMP, we are told that V'Ger is "less than three days away" from Earth when Starfleet first reacts. Ships back in that era are supposedly slower than in the 24th century, and fewer in number.

Result? A defensive force of one ship.

It's not all that inconsistent, really. In both the TOS movies, Earth only verifiably had one starship in orbit, ready to do an intercept. In TMP, no en route intercept was attempted, whereas in ST4 several ships attempted this. OTOH, nowhere in TMP is it really said that no other ship could reach V'Ger in time. It is only said that no other ship could reach V'Ger from Earth in time. Perhaps the only intercept mission worth attempting was one that delivered James T. Kirk and his famed expertise to the menacing enemy? This would then necessitate using the Enterprise rather than the potentially available three other starships situated near the route of the enemy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hober Mallow]

The new movie loses about as many ships, but nobody in that universe cares.

Nobody in this universe cares either.

I would expect the people in that universe to care, at least.

Like when the Ent-D came upon the scene of Wolf 359.

In that situation, that they cared - they were obviously shocked - resulting in me/the audience caring, which helps invest the audience in the feeling of what they're watching.

Yet, they didn't seem to care when their own ship blew up in Generations.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They were humoring Troi.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Ironically, even though Kirk insisted he had to be in charge, he didn't really contribute that much in the final analysis.

You, know, just as an aside, I think this may be the biggest reason fans don't like TMP. It seems to me the biggest flaw.

I like TMP. I like a slower pace, I like big idea stories. I like that it was an attempt at science fiction. All that stuff is great. The problem is the lead character really doesn't do anything. What's his problem? He needs the Enterprise. He gets it right at the start of the film, and... well, that's pretty much the end of his story. You could say his character's need was to be permanent captain of the Enterprise, but he accomplishes that by... not doing anything. It's Decker's sacrifice that makes it happen.

Kirk is a very passive character in the film. The Enterprise itself is probably a more active lead. She kills off Commander Sonak, and doesn't stop malfunctioning until all the lead characters return to their original posts.

I have a feeling that had TMP a more active characer with a more focused goal, people would appreciate TMP a lot more, slow pace, lack of action and all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

One does get the impression that the whole "he needs to get his ship back" thing was added just to give Kirk (and to a lesser extent Decker) something to do.

 

[Christopher]

The problem is the lead character really doesn't do anything. What's his problem? He needs the Enterprise. He gets it right at the start of the film, and... well, that's pretty much the end of his story.

I wouldn't go that far. Kirk getting the Enterprise back creates a conflict, a tension with Will Decker, and that drives much of the story that follows.

I realized a while back that TMP is kind of a 2-part story. The first part is about Kirk returning to his ship and clashing with the man who was supposed to be its captain. That's largely much resolved in the conversation in Kirk's quarters. The second part is about Kirk and Spock confronting V'Ger, with Decker giving support. Although Decker's actions at the end could be taken as the payoff of his gradual realization that his future lay somewhere other than the Enterprise, as well as his renewed relationship with Ilia.

So there is kind of a central arc to the story, but it's Decker's rather than Kirk's. Kirk has two consecutive arcs: first coming to terms with Decker, then coming to terms with the returned Spock. But in the latter, he's more a catalyst and spectator to Spock's transformative journey.

 

[Utopianvista]

I always took the situation to mean the Enterprise was the only ship, capable of combat, able to meet V'Ger in time. You don't send an Oberth starship to confront a giant cloud that destroys everything in it's wake.

It's not as if Earth was defenseless though. BOTW saw it had automated defenses. While no match for the Borg you have to assume they were a match for more conventional threats. The Probe in IV would've just powered down those threats like it did to every ship it came in contact with. Weapons had no effect on V'Ger either.

In the TNG era 40 Starships is still massive in that short amount of time. That was, probably, the first time Starfleet suffered massive losses in who knows how long. The Federation had been at peace for a long time. Isolated conflicts with the Cardassians in the 2350s being the only conflict, on record as far as I know, that Starfleet had to deal with.

It also explains why Starfleet never felt the need to create newer weapons. Still using Phasers and Photon Torpedoes a 100 years later? More powerful versions, sure, but no other weapons? Probably because Starfleet didn't need to develop newer versions. But once the Borg came around here come Quantum Torpedoes!

 

[Christopher]

It's not as if Earth was defenseless though. BOTW saw it had automated defenses. While no match for the Borg you have to assume they were a match for more conventional threats.

TMP mentioned a defense grid as well. When V'Ger's probe was scanning the computer banks, Kirk said, "It's running our records. Earth defenses, Starfleet strength..." That's why Spock smashed the controls -- to try to cut off its access before it got the intelligence it needed on Earth's defense systems. But he was evidently too late, as we learned when V'Ger reached Earth and Chekov announced, "All planetary defense systems have just gone inoperative." V'Ger must've gotten the codes from the Enterprise computer.

The new movie also acknowledges the existence of an Earth defense grid; Nero kidnaps and tortures Pike to obtain its access codes so he can shut it down. Which raises the question of how he did the same with Vulcan's defenses.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He probably Robaued some Vulcan Captain.

 

[trevanian]

He probably Robaued some Vulcan Captain.

Given how even a half-vulcan can resist the klingon mindsifter, I doubt some alien throatwig is going to be all that convincing in 'turning' most vulcan officers.

More likely, Vulcan, like HARDWARE WARS' planet Basketball, is a peaceful planet and cannot defend itself. They both blow up in just about the same fashion, too.

 

[trevanian]

The problem is the lead character really doesn't do anything. What's his problem? He needs the Enterprise. He gets it right at the start of the film, and... well, that's pretty much the end of his story.

I wouldn't go that far. Kirk getting the Enterprise back creates a conflict, a tension with Will Decker, and that drives much of the story that follows.

I realized a while back that TMP is kind of a 2-part story. The first part is about Kirk returning to his ship and clashing with the man who was supposed to be its captain. That's largely much resolved in the conversation in Kirk's quarters. The second part is about Kirk and Spock confronting V'Ger, with Decker giving support. Although Decker's actions at the end could be taken as the payoff of his gradual realization that his future lay somewhere other than the Enterprise, as well as his renewed relationship with Ilia.

So there is kind of a central arc to the story, but it's Decker's rather than Kirk's. Kirk has two consecutive arcs: first coming to terms with Decker, then coming to terms with the returned Spock. But in the latter, he's more a catalyst and spectator to Spock's transformative journey.

I don't really see the Kirk Decker thing as resolving the way you say, especially given their exchanges before and during the cloud passage.

I've thought (since around spring of 1980) that these characters were kind of shoehorned into the character dynamic Wise used in ANDROMEDA STRAIN and to a lesser degree HINDENBERG -- you have the titular main character, who actually doesn't do much of anything besides administrate, and then you have the young guy who is a bit reckless who actually makes most things happen. (If you extend this further, then David Wayne and kate Reid's ANDROMEDA characters fill in for Spock and McCoy, but it starts to crumble if you push too far.)

Then again, that could just be Livingston's intent to make the characters more 'real' or mature than they were in the series, and that it just doesn't work all that effortlessly in this particular story.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He probably Robaued some Vulcan Captain.

Given how even a half-vulcan can resist the klingon mindsifter, I doubt some alien throatwig is going to be all that convincing in 'turning' most vulcan officers.

More likely, Vulcan, like HARDWARE WARS' planet Basketball, is a peaceful planet and cannot defend itself. They both blow up in just about the same fashion, too.

Nero is one lucky sumbitch. He found the one Vulcan that Throatwig the Angry Inch would work on.

And thats implode.

 

[Christopher]

More likely, Vulcan, like HARDWARE WARS' planet Basketball, is a peaceful planet and cannot defend itself.

That doesn't really make sense. Even a peaceful planet would need robust defenses against asteroids and comets, not to mention reckless drivers. Even a small shuttle travelling at a high fraction of the speed of light would have enough kinetic energy to cause a mass extinction event if it struck a planet. So any planet in a starfaring society would absolutely need a robust planetary defense system even if there were no threat of war whatsoever.

Besides, we know Vulcan does have a defense force in the 22nd and 24th centuries, so there's no reason to believe it wouldn't in the 23rd, alternate timeline or no. Nero may have had other methods at his disposal for obtaining the access codes than Centaurian slugs. He could've captured a Vulcan ship and used the more advanced tech from Spock Prime's Vulcan ship from the future to hack its computers.

I realized a while back that TMP is kind of a 2-part story. The first part is about Kirk returning to his ship and clashing with the man who was supposed to be its captain. That's largely much resolved in the conversation in Kirk's quarters. The second part is about Kirk and Spock confronting V'Ger, with Decker giving support. Although Decker's actions at the end could be taken as the payoff of his gradual realization that his future lay somewhere other than the Enterprise, as well as his renewed relationship with Ilia.

So there is kind of a central arc to the story, but it's Decker's rather than Kirk's. Kirk has two consecutive arcs: first coming to terms with Decker, then coming to terms with the returned Spock. But in the latter, he's more a catalyst and spectator to Spock's transformative journey.

I don't really see the Kirk Decker thing as resolving the way you say, especially given their exchanges before and during the cloud passage.

Granted, which is why I said "kind of" more than once. I'm not saying the film definitively or cleanly breaks down that way, just that the arc broadly approximates that shape.

I've thought (since around spring of 1980) that these characters were kind of shoehorned into the character dynamic Wise used in ANDROMEDA STRAIN and to a lesser degree HINDENBERG -- you have the titular main character, who actually doesn't do much of anything besides administrate, and then you have the young guy who is a bit reckless who actually makes most things happen.

Maybe. That does somewhat reflect what I believe Roddenberry's plans were for Phase II -- Kirk as more of an older mentor figure and Decker as the young action hero and romantic lead. A pattern which he recycled with Picard and Riker in TNG, although Patrick Stewart ended up being a much more dominant action/romantic lead than anyone anticipated.