Thank you -- you've summed up in one sentence what I've been trying to get across in dozens of paragraphs.
Doctor Who due a major shake-up as bosses aim for 'brand new show' in 2018
- Thread starter Haggis and tatties
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Thank you -- you've summed up in one sentence what I've been trying to get across in dozens of paragraphs.
If that's the case, and the story about the BBC wanting to stick with the young hero type is true, it'll be interesting to see how well that plays out. That's the safe choice and I can see that approach having some short-term benefits. But, in the long run, it might get a bit tedious if they stick with it over multiple regenerations.
In the classic series, while some of the dramatic changes produced ratings increases and others produced decreases, on the whole the variety kept the original program fresher for a longer time.
Mr Awe
Female, you may well be right. That would be the gamble to take if the Tennant retread for the thirteenth Doctor doesn't get the ratings up, so the BBC decides to really shake things up with a female Doctor (Romola Garai or Laura Carmichael would be my choices right now, and I think either would be downright Tennant-esque or Smith-esque) to get people to tune in for at least the first episode.
Non-white, I'm not so sure. I'm not sure why someone like Patterson Joseph couldn't be zany in a Tennant-like way.
I guess it all really depends on what the BBC higher-ups believe is the root cause of the series' malaise, so to speak, and how badly they've judged Moffat to have damaged the series and the brand.
Well, of course, no rational person would think he couldn't. But we're not talking about rational people, we're talking about television executives. If they're afraid to take chances on an "unconventional" Doctor, they might find a nonwhite Doctor too risky.
Well, because I have to say it, of the 6th Doctor's canon companions (Peri and Mel), I always considered Peri the definitive companion, and not just because I hate Mel. Even if the 6th Doctor had gotten more then two companions, Peri would probably stay the definitive one to me. Also, I'd say even with just the canon 6th Doctor stories he managed to grow a lot, although he was always a good guy he did tone down while traveling with Peri. He definitely grew more then the Doctor who only got one movie and a 5 minute regeneration.
Well, I definitely disagree. I don't even count that story as canon, but I didn't get that interpretation at all. He did absolutely nothing that any other Doctor wouldn't have done, and didn't even violate morality in any sense. He defeated The Valeyard and sacrificed himself. It was a badly written situation, The Valeyard was already completely defeated in his last canon appearance so Big Finish using him in any story was just asinine, but the one thing I'll give the story is that The Doctor met his end like any other incarnation would have. If the story tried to say otherwise (which I can't remember, the non canon stuff isn't very memorable outside of a few of the bigger blunders), then it was just the regular situation where Big Finish "writers" don't get the Doctor at all.
The 7th Doctor is a complete sociopath. He makes The War Doctor look like the 5th Doctor, and even in the time war I doubt The War Doctor did anything as dark as the 7th. In my opinion the 7th doesn't remotely resemble any of the NuWho Doctors, except that he has a similar accent to the 12th. Well, ok, he was also a grouch (when he had any real emotion outside of the sadistic glee he got from hurting Ace or defeating someone), and the 12th Doctor could also be a grouch. So, I guess he is a bit like the 12th, but only in a few small ways. As for Cartmel, the guy who thought up "the Cartmel Masterplan" ranks just below Michael Grade when it comes to people whose opinion of Doctor Who I care about.
Eh, I still don't buy it. If there was darkness lurking in The Doctor, its been lurking since the 1st Doctor, and not something connected specifically with the 6th. Honestly, I don't think it needs any in-universe explanation. The Doctor became darker because of bad creative decisions made a few stories into the 7th Doctor's run. Then, TV (as a whole) generally got to be a bit darker, even a show like Doctor Who, so NuWho is a bit darker with what The Doctor can do at times because its more normal. Like I said, I always thought that The Doctor, from his first incarnation, had some dark parts of himself. Not a full blown sociopath like the 7th Doctor maybe, but even something like "destroying" Galifrey is a decision I could see the classic Doctors making, even the 5th.
I only mentioned it because it was relevant to the discussion. When it comes to comparing the 6th Doctor to other incarnations, taking into account the 6th Doctor stories that actually count (the TV stories, and that's it) is a legitimate thing to bring up, especially when you're talking about him as a character.
There wsan't a lot of growth. He softened a bit in his first series, but not enough. He was considerably lighter in his second, but still pretty pompous. BF filled the gap between the first series and made for a smooth transition, and of course continued onwards to a full-fledged version of the character, as Colin Baker had always wanted.
And again, no point having this discussion with you. You clearly don't like talking about BF, so don't engage in discussions about a character whose prime history comes that place.
It goes without saying that writing is influenced by the times in which the show was written. Clearly the times were darker during the 80's, that's why the show is so cold and unemotional most of the time (even during Davison's era, which was otherwise smooth sailing) and got worse as it progressed, and the Doctor had to fit the times, or he'd not survived.
By the time of his FIfth incarnation, he was as Christopher put it, a happy-go-lucky guy who barely hold any situation together, a stark contrast to Four, whose increasing bizarreness still lent him the ability to command respect. As the show went on (and in BF its elaborated) the Fifth had to deal with a violent universe around him, and the Sixth was his own responce to that darkness that he was, as FIve, so ineffectual in battling. But it was with Seven that the Oncoming Storm portion of the character, the one that's most associated with NuWho, was introduced, as by then he was certain he could carry that nastiness with him. I don't remember the first five Doctors being as gloomy or arrogant in the use of his name as the post-Six Docs have been. Eight even tried to disassociate himself from Seven's scheming and plotting but failed as the universe just kept dissolving, until he finally relented and became the Warrior.
Well, now I disagree. Once I saw the McCoy serials, I knew what RTD and Moffat were talking about when they said the seeds of NuWho were already there in the last couple of seasons of OldWho. The pace was briskier, but also the Doctor was more assured of himself and his abilities, his intensity and brooding developed and was more willing to be harsh and cruel in order to do the right thing at the end. The difference is, Seven didn't have the TIme War as an excuse, instead acting as an observer of occurred tragedies, whereas Nine through Eleven had to live through a trauma of their own making, thus they were acting out of experience - and even Twelve, although he's the first Doctor to be relieved of the Gallifrey-destruction trauma, so I'm not quite as certain.
If I have anything against Cartmel, it might be that season 24 might be the worst series in all of Doctor Who's history. It is literally a kid's show, by that time. Unwatchable, nearly.
And I am also taking into account the relevant stories that involve a fully-fledged performance by Colin Baker, in stories licenced by the BBC. Don't make this into fanon vs. canon as its clear the BBC doesn't care either way.
Garai and Carmichael would definitely both make my female Doctor list and I could certainly see Garai as somewhat Tennant'esq whilst Carmichael would be more Smithy (which is likely unfair to both of them as I suspect they'd give us something different). I'd add in Nicola Walker and Olivia Colman (because I always do).
I can't see any reason the BBC wouldn't countenance a black or Asian Doctor. Paterson Joseph, Adrian Lester, Sanjeev Bhaskarand, of course, I'm still amazed they wouldn't at least consider Alexander Siddig. He's too young right now but I really liked Zaqi Ismail in Under the Lake/Before the Flood and I think he could make a great future Doctor.
I guess the problem with 13 being Tennant like is that, if he's a success then the die is pretty much cast and it'd be difficult to radically change the formula until things tail off again. It'd be interesting to know what the BBC focus groups say about Capaldi as well, is his age really that much of an issue? (personally I think from a marketing perspective its more likely the problem is inconsistency of the character and the lack of a recognisable 'look', as well as the gaps in production).
My main fear about Chibnall is that he's been brought in to produce a very safe, generic version of Who, and whatever you say about RTD or Moffat I think the show under both of them has been anything but just another sci-fi show.
This won't help with the show's flagging ratings in the long term IMO especially as this probably means an April Easter start and as the season goes on the ratings drop alongside the late spring/early summer weather. Also if they want the show to feel fresh why not have a 1-2 year break after the 2017 series because fatigue is playing a HUGE part in the show domestic fanbase, oversea's has Doctor Who been more popular than the Moffat era?.
If 2017 is to be Capaldi's last hurrah, I don't want another Christmas Day regeneration.
Either do the regeneration in June or don't do a regeneration at all (have Capaldi walk off into the sunset, then start the next Doctor in media res, like Hartnell and Eccleston), and for the 2017 Christmas Special, do a one-off War Doctor Christmas story with Sir John Hurt.
Likelihood of any of this happening? Less than zero. Still, one can hope.
Either do the regeneration in June or don't do a regeneration at all (have Capaldi walk off into the sunset, then start the next Doctor in media res, like Hartnell and Eccleston), and for the 2017 Christmas Special, do a one-off War Doctor Christmas story with Sir John Hurt.
Likelihood of any of this happening? Less than zero. Still, one can hope.
The 6th Doctor's only history comes from TV. I can engage in discussions about him, because I've experienced ever part of his existence that is canon. If you want to have a real talk about the 6th Doctor, the TV stories are it. Anything else is just poorly done fanfiction, and is in no way the actual character. Talking about the real Sixth Doctor, who said he didn't stay pompous? He should always be pompous, just like the 12th Doctor should be grouchy , etc. He grew as much as he needed to on the show. He was, and always should have been, somewhat brash and a bit arrogant, that's who the character was in this incarnation.
The difference is he got less harsh about it, but he never lost his thornier side, he just wasn't as cruel as he was in his first few stories. He'd hit a great spot by the first story of Trial of a Timelord in my opinion, that was the 6th Doctor they should have had since the first story (although I liked a lot of his first season as well). If he had more stories, he'd probably have stayed just about as he was in Trial of a Timelord. He also sure as hell wouldn't have worn a stupid blue coat, had an elderly teacher or penguin as companions, or met The Valeyard ever again. I don't like fanfiction at the best of times, but the writers at Big finish (and, to be fair, the comics because the stupid penguin was from the comics) are pretty bad writers even just judging them by fanfiction standards. They made some stupid companions, tried to "fix" his look and starting bringing back villains who were about as dead as possible because fanfiction needs its goofy, impossible battles. I only deal with the real 6th Doctor stories, the TV stories are canon, everything else is not.
I'm calling BS. the Doctor does not influence his next incarnation, except in 2 specific instances. The 8th Doctor (in his second and final canon appearance) used the sisterhood of Karn to effect his regeneration, and the 11th apparently wanted to look like the guy from The Fires of Pompeii, but that also was only cosmetic, the 11th Doctor didn't choose the personality of the 12th. So, the 6th wasn't a reaction to anything. He was just the next random personality to come from The Doctor.
I don't see any connection between the 7th Doctor stories and nuWho. The 7th Doctor was cruel, literally tortured his companion and outside of his accent has no connection to any NuWho Doctor. Even the War Doctor was shown to be nowhere near as harsh as the 7th, who I consider to basically be The Master, except the 7th Doctor prefers slow torture over murder. No NuWho Doctor has ever done anything like he did, because NuWho knows that The Doctor is a hero. He has flaws and can mess up, but he cares and wants to help, except in his 7th incarnation. The 7th only saved people to serve his agenda, or to defeat aliens he already hated (like Daleks and Cybermen). He mostly just existed to torture Ace for no reason, and to act like he was clever.
Delta and the Bannermen is, in my opinion, the only really great 7th Doctor story. He wasn't a sociopath yet, the story was interesting, and even Mel was less annoying then normal. It was certainly better then any story in Seasons 25 or 26, although Remembrance of the Daleks, Silver Nemesis, Battlefield and Survival are all tolerable 7th Doctor adventures.
The Star Trek novels have always been fully licensed by the people who own the rights (Paramount or CBS, I don't remember), and not one of them is even remotely canon. Its the same with Big Finish stuff. The TV show will never use Big Finish as anything more then easter egg material, like giving the 8th Doctor some throw away names for companions. As far as the TV show and the BBC is concerned, only the TV stories count, and that's what I go with. I'd say that even if I didn't loathe Big Finish and everyone who worked for it (minus the actors, of course) and consider it the worst thing technically connected to Doctor Who.
I have to wonder, is this BBC backlash for Moffat almost hiring Rakhee (and therefore, losing the American audience?). I haven't seen such vanity on their behalf, since the Grade days. But what do you expect, but what do you expect, with Boris Johnson influencing them?
I genuinely don't know why Rahkee would have "lost the American audience."
She's pretty much the elephant in the room...I mean, look at her Eastenders character, and the current state of affairs in America.
Don't assume that all Americans share the bigotry of the faction that narrowly won the election (despite losing the popular vote). I don't think that subsection of Americans would include a lot of Doctor Who fans to begin with. And there are a number of Indian actresses on American TV these days -- Parminder Nagra, Priyanka Chopra, Janina Gavankar, etc. Not to mention the popularity among comics fans of Ms. Marvel/Kamala Khan, a Pakistani-American Muslim teenager. Our media culture is a lot more inclusive than the currently ascendant political faction.
If 2017 is to be Capaldi's last hurrah, I don't want another Christmas Day regeneration.
Either do the regeneration in June or don't do a regeneration at all (have Capaldi walk off into the sunset, then start the next Doctor in media res, like Hartnell and Eccleston), and for the 2017 Christmas Special, do a one-off War Doctor Christmas story with Sir John Hurt.
Likelihood of any of this happening? Less than zero. Still, one can hope.
I really like that idea, I think it would work on a whole host of levels. First, as you say, it would get us out of the whole Christmas regeneration cycle. Secondly it would give more screen time to the Doctor we never knew we had
but there's also the element thematic link between war and Christmas which is especially relevant given it will come on the cusp of the 100th year anniversary of the end of WW1, plus the whole Tommies and German soldiers playing football between the trenches on Christmas day thang as well.I mean it might be a somewhat dark/mournful Christmas special but you could inject a lot of hope in there as well.
The downside is we'd get less Capaldi.
Of course is there any reason we couldn't regenerate Capaldi at the end of series 10, then have a Christmas special that features the 12th Doctor pre-regeneration? Heck I'm still surprised they haven't thought of giving us a multiple Doctor story for Christmas one year, I mean three wise men anyone? Get Capald,i Smith and Tennant together, or 12, 11 and 8, or 12, 10 and the War Doctor (heck you could even throw in a cameo from 13 as the ghost of Christmas future!) Sorry mixing my Christmas metaphors there!
Thanks! The proximate cause of the idea came from reading Penguin's The Twelve Doctors of Christmas over the weekend at Philcon. Twelve Doctors is an anthology of Christmas-themed Doctor Who stories aimed at a younger audience -- some are more Christmassy than others, and some are fanwankier than others -- and I had the thought, "Of course they ignored Captain Grumpy. They always do."
So the idea of a War Doctor Christmas story came first. Then, "Is there any reason we couldn't do one on television, starring John Hurt, before he's gone?" Then it all clicked into line.
I like your idea, Starkers, of a World War I story. Much as I liked "Last Christmas," I wish they had done a Christmas Truce story in 2014. Right now I have a vague idea of something involving J.R.R. Tolkien, the aftermath of the Somme, and the beginning of his writings of Middle-Earth with themes about how out of great darkness and ceaseless conflict there's still glimmers of hope and inspiration.
A multi-Doctor Christmas story would be a lot of fun, too. Anything that showed some "outside the box" thinking.
I still think it be funny if the Doctor regenerated into one of his old faces, just to mess with people. Where instead of trying to copy David Tennant or Matt Smith, they just hire one of them again as the 13th Doctor. The unlucky one....or perhaps the scary one that the universe was afraid of, rather than the 11th Doctor who basically tried to use his reputation to win his larger fights. Be funny if it was the 13th Doctor that the universe was afraid of, but he and the 11th have the same face (one of his "old favorites"). Also make it possible to have some weirdness with either River Song or Clara since they'd think he's the 11th Doctor. Or give the 10th Doctor's face more time to be out there, again causing the potential for time travel shenanigans with people who would otherwise be dead to him in any future face because they shouldn't know any more faces. Or even Paul McGann, even he they don't use him again as the 8th Doctor, he could still be the Doctor. At which point they can write him however they want (regardless of whom plays the Doctor's face for that matter) since this would be a new incarnation. Same face doesn't mean the same personality...at least not completely. If it was Matt Smith, no more fish fingers and custard. If it was Tennant....well, less "sorry, I am so sorry", because he probably isn't being as old as the Doctor will be by the time he gets to his second set of regenerations' second incarnation.
Thanks! The proximate cause of the idea came from reading Penguin's The Twelve Doctors of Christmas over the weekend at Philcon. Twelve Doctors is an anthology of Christmas-themed Doctor Who stories aimed at a younger audience -- some are more Christmassy than others, and some are fanwankier than others -- and I had the thought, "Of course they ignored Captain Grumpy. They always do."
So the idea of a War Doctor Christmas story came first. Then, "Is there any reason we couldn't do one on television, starring John Hurt, before he's gone?" Then it all clicked into line.
I like your idea, Starkers, of a World War I story. Much as I liked "Last Christmas," I wish they had done a Christmas Truce story in 2014. Right now I have a vague idea of something involving J.R.R. Tolkien, the aftermath of the Somme, and the beginning of his writings of Middle-Earth with themes about how out of great darkness and ceaseless conflict there's still glimmers of hope and inspiration.
A multi-Doctor Christmas story would be a lot of fun, too. Anything that showed some "outside the box" thinking.
Sometimes I think if they put fandom in charge it would be a horrible horrible disaster, but other times I think we'd create something wonderful- that idea about Tolkien is inspired!
They did put fandom in charge, in the person of Steven Moffat. His Doctor Who work (and Sherlock and pretty much everything else) is essentially fanfiction, more focused on celebrating, analyzing, and deconstructing the main character and tropes and continuity of a franchise than with just telling stories in it. And as a result it's had both wonderful elements and... well, not quite distastrous elements, but parts that aren't so wonderful. As I've said in the past, Doctor Who used to be a series about the Doctor exploring the universe, but ever since Moffat took over, it's been a series about the universe reacting to the Doctor.
I don't have strong feelings either way about a regeneration occurring during the Christmas Special. But, I do highly dislike the idea of an unseen regeneration. They should be shown. It's part of the excitement and history of the series to see how each one is done. I hope they don't go that route.
Mr Awe
Mr Awe