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Do you want ongoing novels on the Kelvin Universe

Do you want ongoing novels on the Kelvin Universe

  • Yes

    Votes: 47 59.5%
  • No

    Votes: 32 40.5%

  • Total voters
    79
  • Poll closed .
Only in the Abrams movies. And even then, only in XI and STID. This weird practice was abandoned in Beyond.

And Dax once. :p

But yeah Laura, the gimmick of Captain's Table is that it's a weird magical bar that only people who are captains (or the equivalent in other cultures) can enter. Since temporary command would only make you a captain for the duration of that command, by definition anyone walking around on a starbase with the potential of finding a random door tucked away in dark corridor wouldn't be such at the time of their wanderings. :p
 
And Dax once. :p

No, that was completely different. Dax was the actual commanding officer of the Defiant for those missions, which meant it was correct naval usage to address her as "Captain" regardless of her rank. In the '09 movie, the actual commanding officer, Pike, merely gave the conn to a junior officer while he was temporarily off the ship, which meant it was entirely incorrect usage to address the junior officer as "Captain."


But yeah Laura, the gimmick of Captain's Table is that it's a weird magical bar that only people who are captains (or the equivalent in other cultures) can enter. Since temporary command would only make you a captain for the duration of that command, by definition anyone walking around on a starbase with the potential of finding a random door tucked away in dark corridor wouldn't be such at the time of their wanderings. :p

But Will Decker would qualify, because he wasn't in "temporary command." He was the chosen, official captain of the Enterprise during its 18-month refit, and perhaps even before then (since Kirk was chief of operations for 2.5 years, so there's an extra year before the refit began). He had the rank of captain, and the Enterprise was his ship for a significant amount of time.
 
In the 2009 film, I took Robau's calling George Kirk "captain" as a tacit acknowledgment that he knew he wasn't coming back from the Narada, and Pike's calling Spock "captain" simply an underscoring of where Spock's current responsibilities were. I guess I didn't see it as an unusual protocol. It's true: being "temporarily in command" doesn't/shouldn't entail a rank change, even in direct address for the duration. Hm.
 
Sometimes people call the replacement guy "captain".
But that doesn't mean they are an actual captain, they just call them that while they're in charge of the ship. I think they referred to Jadzia as Captain in one of the episodes where she was in command of the Defiant, but she wasn't actually promoted to captain.
When it comes to the Captain's Table it appears to be only open to be people who are actual permanent commanders of their ships. I think
 
In the 2009 film, I took Robau's calling George Kirk "captain" as a tacit acknowledgment that he knew he wasn't coming back from the Narada, and Pike's calling Spock "captain" simply an underscoring of where Spock's current responsibilities were. I guess I didn't see it as an unusual protocol. It's true: being "temporarily in command" doesn't/shouldn't entail a rank change, even in direct address for the duration. Hm.
You can squint and look at it that way in Trek XI and it kind of works, but then it's rendered moot in STID where Sulu actually is addressed as Captain when he's in command of the bridge while Kirk and the others are heading to Qo'nos. Given it was Kirk's intent to return with Khan in captivity, Sulu really was only in temporary command, and therefore should not have been called "Captain" by anyone.
 
But that doesn't mean they are an actual captain, they just call them that while they're in charge of the ship. I think they referred to Jadzia as Captain in one of the episodes where she was in command of the Defiant, but she wasn't actually promoted to captain.

As I said, though, that's completely different from Pike just giving Spock the conn while he was away. At the time, Jadzia actually was the commander of the ship. Sisko was assigned to the starbase, directing whole fleets from behind a desk. Worf was serving under Martok on the Rotarran. So it wasn't a situation where Dax just had the conn while the actual commanding officer was on an away mission. At that time, she was the official commanding officer of the ship, just as Jellico was the official captain of the Enterprise in "Chain of Command." She was able to hold the post of captain without holding the rank of captain (two completely different things) because the Defiant was a small ship, and smaller ships are often assigned to officers below captain's rank.

Star Trek usually gets this wrong, because most of its writers don't understand the difference between captain as a rank and captain as a post. So we had Kirk in the movies actually needing a demotion to be called "Captain" in TMP, and being called "Admiral" while commanding the ship in the later movies, when in both cases he should've been addressed as "Captain" even while still holding admiral's rank. And we had Sisko and Worf being called "Commander" at the helm of the Defiant even though they both should've been called "Captain" when they the official commanding officers of record. Dax being called "Captain" in "Behind the Lines" was pretty much the one and only time that canonical Star Trek has gotten this practice right -- and ST'09 is the most egregiously wrong misunderstanding of the practice in all of canonical Star Trek. They are absolutely not equivalent cases.
 
I have an idea for a kids picture book that would feature the Kelvinverse characters. I won't go into detail here, but I'll just say I think it would be fun.
 
^ If you mean Enterprise the show? There is no such thing as a Kelvinverse version, because the divergence took place decades after ENT. So it's common to both timelines.

And yes, I'm aware of what Simon Pegg said on that point, and I don't care, because it makes no sense. :p
 
Still, though, unless it somehow makes it into a Trek film (which is doubtful, since ST4 will probably be the final Kelvinverse film and Pegg isn't writing it), then effectively he never said it.
 
Still, though, unless it somehow makes it into a Trek film (which is doubtful, since ST4 will probably be the final Kelvinverse film and Pegg isn't writing it), then effectively he never said it.

Now a comment like that doesn't make sense.
 
Still, though, unless it somehow makes it into a Trek film (which is doubtful, since ST4 will probably be the final Kelvinverse film and Pegg isn't writing it), then effectively he never said it.

Now a comment like that doesn't make sense.

Here's the thing. Pegg's explanation is not canonical until it gets into a movie. It also is very inconsistent with the rules of time travel, as established in canon. Furthermore, Pegg originally pulled this out of his hat to explain why Sulu was gay (which is a whole other can of worms) on the assumption that Sulu was born before the timeline change. Sulu was born after, so there's no reason to invent an additional change to history, since the original incursion could explain it.

On top of that, Star Trek Beyond falls apart, since the backstory depends on us recalling specific events from the ENT TV show, meaning that stuff has to be the same before.

So, not only is Pegg's model not needed, but it has been effectively disproven. (And look at it this way. Pegg basically said that the '09 and Into Darkness's author's time travel model -- which also had its problems -- was wrong. If their statements have no weight, neither does Pegg's.)
 
Yeah they can explain the plotholes, Kirk being Captain over night and how the Vulcan Diaspora cope with all their family destroyed. There are some good Fanfiction tales on this element
 
The most popular one who posted on this forum (an individual I'm pretty sure hasn't posted here in years) was of the opinion that "canon Trek" was only Trek Roddenberry was involved with, meaning seasons 1 and 2 of TOS, TMP, and seasons 1-5 of TNG.
Sounds like a member of the Trek Taliban club
 
Here's the thing. Pegg's explanation is not canonical until it gets into a movie.

As I've pointed out before, the explanation apparently originated with the Okudas in their new Encyclopedia. We've seen an image of text from the book that conveys that theory, and given the lead time for publishing books, that text must've been written last year sometime. It must've been Mike & Denise Okuda who came up with the explanation to explain the discrepancies in the first two movies, and Pegg must have seen an advance copy of the Encyclopedia, or talked about it with the Okudas at some point, and passed the idea along when it came up in an interview.

It also is very inconsistent with the rules of time travel, as established in canon.

Bull. Take it from the guy who literally wrote the book on Trek time travel -- there have never, ever, ever been any remotely consistent "rules of time travel" in Trek canon. There's just a bunch of arbitrary handwaves that writers have made up to serve whatever story they wanted to tell at the moment. That's why I wrote the first DTI book to begin with -- in hopes of somehow taking all that disparate nonsense and creating the illusion that it could fit together in some coherent way. There's nothing about the Okudas' theory here that's any more absurd than the time loops in "We'll Always Have Paris" or the incoherent nonsense of "anti-time" in "All Good Things..." or the total mess of the Temporal Cold War.


On top of that, Star Trek Beyond falls apart, since the backstory depends on us recalling specific events from the ENT TV show, meaning that stuff has to be the same before.

First off, it doesn't depend on us recalling anything, since it explains everything that's relevant to the film, and aside from the general historical background, it's all completely original to the movie anyway. All we need to know is that there used to be a military organization called MACOs that was folded into Starfleet when the Federation was founded, and that's clearly stated in dialogue. You could follow the story perfectly well even if you'd never seen Enterprise.

Second, the Okudas' model doesn't require that everything be different; it just allows for the possibility that certain things can be. I mean, obviously if two different timelines have Kirk and Spock and the Federation in them at all, then a lot of things must have gone the same way even if other things were changed.


(And look at it this way. Pegg basically said that the '09 and Into Darkness's author's time travel model -- which also had its problems -- was wrong. If their statements have no weight, neither does Pegg's.)

Again, not Pegg's model. The Okudas came up with it first. And their model actually makes more sense of '09 and STID, because it explains the discrepancies that didn't fit the original model, like the Kelvin's unusual size, Pike being a decade too old, and Earth's cities being far more built up. I suspect that's why the Okudas came up with the model in the first place -- because they didn't find the existing explanation adequate to reconcile the differences. The irony is that Beyond is the one Bad Robot movie that doesn't need the new theory, because it's much easier to reconcile with pre-2233 canon.
 
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