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Do you want ongoing novels on the Kelvin Universe

Do you want ongoing novels on the Kelvin Universe

  • Yes

    Votes: 47 59.5%
  • No

    Votes: 32 40.5%

  • Total voters
    79
  • Poll closed .
Has CBS/Paramount put a restriction on stories post-Romulus destruction in the main timeline?
How does that affect Star Trek Online gaming which goes into the 25th century (don't know much about this)?
There is no restriction from Paramount or CBS regarding the novels going past 2387. It is Bad Robot which won't allow Pocket Books to cover anything from their movies, which includes the destruction of Romulus. As already indicated, this is something of a big event which the novels can't really gloss over, and so, the current 24th century novel continuity is slowing down their pace. Currently set early in the year 2386, novel continuity can easily stretch itself out to 2019 before hitting 2387, and even then there's wiggle room, we don't know, we don't know what part of 2387 the destruction of Romulus takes place in, if we assume it's towards the end of the year, they can easily go an extra year or so before addressing the issue, which hopefully means by 2021 Pocket could be allowed to handle material from the Abrams movies, if they even still have the license to Star Trek novels (they nearly lost it at the end of 2012).

As for STO, Bad Robot has placed no restrictions on them, and therefore they are allowed to acknowledge material from the movies like the destruction of Romulus and ship designs and the whole lot. Indeed, it is because of the current storyline in STO that we now have the official name "Kelvin Timeline" for what we have been referring to as the "Abramsverse" for the past seven years.
 
Wouldn't it be possible to not have Romulus destroyed in the novel timeline?
 
Yeah, me too. I actually had a pitch queued up for when the series got going. I liked the idea of writing the characters in this younger, a bit less seasoned incarnation taking on the kind of challenges their "prime universe" counterparts often encountered, and seeing how differently it would play out...

That's exactly the mindset I had. I also had a pitch or two that I'd worked up. Nothing elaborate; just a few paragraphs to get a conversation going.

Oh, well. :)
 
Wouldn't it be possible to not have Romulus destroyed in the novel timeline?

I believe that Trek tie-in authors are bound (by contract even?) to stay consistent with everything portrayed onscreen in Star Trek to the best of their ability. Like, mistakes or errors are fine, but outright explicit and purposeful contradiction of what we see is not.
 
I believe that Trek tie-in authors are bound (by contract even?) to stay consistent with everything portrayed onscreen in Star Trek to the best of their ability. Like, mistakes or errors are fine, but outright explicit and purposeful contradiction of what we see is not.
Soooo, either they'll jump forward in time for a few years (which I wouldn't like) , go back to the TV series times (which is unlikely), fill in the gaps like whatever happened on DS9 between the 2378 parts of Ascandence and Zero Sum Game or more Lost Era (which I'd like but probably isn't likely), do something completely crazy like moving the Federation into some other galaxy or at some point acquire the rights to mention the destruction of Romulus.
 
There is no restriction from Paramount or CBS regarding the novels going past 2387. It is Bad Robot which won't allow Pocket Books to cover anything from their movies, which includes the destruction of Romulus. As already indicated, this is something of a big event which the novels can't really gloss over, and so, the current 24th century novel continuity is slowing down their pace. Currently set early in the year 2386, novel continuity can easily stretch itself out to 2019 before hitting 2387, and even then there's wiggle room, we don't know, we don't know what part of 2387 the destruction of Romulus takes place in, if we assume it's towards the end of the year, they can easily go an extra year or so before addressing the issue, which hopefully means by 2021 Pocket could be allowed to handle material from the Abrams movies, if they even still have the license to Star Trek novels (they nearly lost it at the end of 2012).

As for STO, Bad Robot has placed no restrictions on them, and therefore they are allowed to acknowledge material from the movies like the destruction of Romulus and ship designs and the whole lot. Indeed, it is because of the current storyline in STO that we now have the official name "Kelvin Timeline" for what we have been referring to as the "Abramsverse" for the past seven years.

Thanks for the clarification.
Our view of Romulus' destruction is from Ambassador Spock's "mind-meld" with the alternate Kirk.
Since Spock recognized this younger man as "Jim Kirk" despite a difference in "resemblance" from the Jim Kirk he knew, did he really "witness" the destruction of Romulus?
(This is what took me out of the movie, story-wise, and grew my disdain for the new film franchise)
 
I don't really understand why they can't just have Romulus be destroyed. Don't mention specifics. No involvement from Spock, nothing about Red Matter or supernovas. Just that Romulus was destroyed in a horrible circumstance.

It's not really referencing the movie, just a totally seperate decision on the part of the Pocket Books creative team to destroy a major planet. They could just as easily have decided to destroy Cardassia.

Conversely I don't see why they should even be bound to not contradict a film which they are at the same time not permitted to reference.
 
Since Spock recognized this younger man as "Jim Kirk" despite a difference in "resemblance" from the Jim Kirk he knew,

Given that Spock recognized him, in-universe that implies that there was no difference in resemblance. The actors are different, but the character in-universe wasn't. It's like how Dick York Darren Stevens didn't actually look different from Dick Sargent Darren Stevens to Samantha. Or how someone that recognized Sean Connery James Bond would still recognize Timothy Dalton James Bond or Daniel Craig James Bond.

It's no different then Kirk recognizing Sarek in TFF even though it wasn't Mark Lenard. Or the hologram of T'Pau in "Darkling" not looking like Celia Lovsky, but still looking like T'Pau to the people in-universe. Or them swapping Owen Paris's actor from Warren Munson to Richard Herd. Heck, it's almost no different than Abraham Lincoln looking like Lee Bergere, Mark Twain looking like Jerry Hardin, or Leonardo da Vinci looking like James Daly with a big beard. Or John Rhys-Davies with a big beard.
 
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I believe that Trek tie-in authors are bound (by contract even?) to stay consistent with everything portrayed onscreen in Star Trek to the best of their ability. Like, mistakes or errors are fine, but outright explicit and purposeful contradiction of what we see is not.

That's not handled explicltly by contract but by the approval process. All STAR TREK books must be approved in advance by CBS, based on a submitted outline, and the final manuscripts are run by CBS for approval as well. And the general expectation is that, yes, that the books will be consistent with the various movies and TV episodes--although the cartoon series is a bit of a gray area. :)

In other words, we don't sign a contract promising to remain consistent with the onscreen version, but, in general, the books aren't going to get approved and published unless they are.
 
Given that Spock recognized him, in-universe that implies that there was no difference in resemblance. The actors are different, but the character in-universe wasn't. It's like how Dick York Darren Stevens didn't actually look different from Dick Sargent Darren Stevens to Samantha. Or how someone that recognized Sean Connery James Bond would still recognize Timothy Dalton James Bond or Daniel Craig James Bond.
Fair points, but again, changes like that will pull me out of a story real fast.
I enjoyed Bewitched less because of the change in actors, but I did watch it (at least that first Dick Sargent season).
In the case of Bond, since the character started on the page, I understood the "evergreen" aspect to the franchise, like Tarzan, and accepted the actor changes.
With TOS, I do not like to accept the "evergreen" status. The original actors were the "template" to those iconic characters. I do not feel that those characters are "actor-interchangeable".
Consider: thirty years from now, will there be another re-casting if they stay with TOS characters?
Again, TOS is not "evergreen", in my opinion.
The problem will occur with the next feature film and the Chekov character, will it not?
 
Well, the film after next; I believe filming had already wrapped up on Beyond before the tragedy with Anton Yelchin.
 
But "evergreen" or not, the assumption, story-wise, is that Darrin is still Darrin and Bond is still Bond and Kirk is still Kirk, regardless of who plays them. Recasting a part doesn't constitute an error or inconsistency or call the plot into question. And it's a tradition as old as Hollywood at least.

I mean, on a topical note, did people "disdain" Adventures of Superman when Noel Neill replaced Phyllis Coates, or wonder why Clark didn't notice that Lois looked different now? :)
 
It's no different then Kirk recognizing Sarek in TFF even though it wasn't Mark Lenard. Or the hologram of T'Pau in "Darkling" not looking like Celia Lovsky, but still looking like T'Pau to the people in-universe. Or them swapping Owen Paris's actor from Warren Munson to Richard Herd. Heck, it's almost no different than Abraham Lincoln looking like Lee Bergere, Mark Twain looking like Jerry Hardin, or Leonardo da Vinci looking like James Daly with a big beard. Or John Rhys-Davies with a big beard.

And let's not forget the two Saaviks. And, yes, the fact that Kirk recognized Saavik even though she was now played by a different actress doesn't mean that we should question whether the Genesis Planet really blew up. :)
 
But "evergreen" or not, the assumption, story-wise, is that Darrin is still Darrin and Bond is still Bond and Kirk is still Kirk, regardless of who plays them. Recasting a part doesn't constitute an error or inconsistency or call the plot into question. And it's a tradition as old as Hollywood at least.

I mean, on a topical note, did people "disdain" Adventures of Superman when Noel Neill replaced Phyllis Coates, or wonder why Clark didn't notice that Lois looked different now? :)

I believe the Superman characters to be "evergreen" as well; they started on the "comic" page. Therefore, readers could put any "person" their mind's eye could envision as the character.

Star Trek stared on the "script" page, unseen by anyone until September, 1966.

When the characters began to appear, the actors put the "life" into them. The viewer couldn't substitute a "mind's eye view" to a character already established on the screen.

When I read "Assignment: Eternity", (a favorite novel) my mind's eye placed Robert Lansing, Teri Garr, etc. into those roles in the story, no one else. Because they were established.

Again, my opinion only. Not to offend.
 
And let's not forget the two Saaviks. And, yes, the fact that Kirk recognized Saavik even though she was now played by a different actress doesn't mean that we should question whether the Genesis Planet really blew up. :)

And that affected my enjoyment of ST III, and to a lesser degree, ST IV.
 
But "evergreen" or not, the assumption, story-wise, is that Darrin is still Darrin and Bond is still Bond and Kirk is still Kirk, regardless of who plays them. Recasting a part doesn't constitute an error or inconsistency or call the plot into question. And it's a tradition as old as Hollywood at least.

I mean, on a topical note, did people "disdain" Adventures of Superman when Noel Neill replaced Phyllis Coates, or wonder why Clark didn't notice that Lois looked different now? :)

Before today i had never heard of Noel Neill...and not 5 minutes after reading this quote here, I saw this:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/noel-neill-lois-lane-on-adventures-of-superman-dead-at-95
 
I believe that Trek tie-in authors are bound (by contract even?) to stay consistent with everything portrayed onscreen in Star Trek to the best of their ability. Like, mistakes or errors are fine, but outright explicit and purposeful contradiction of what we see is not.

And yet, The Good That Men Do got away with retconning "These Are The Voyages", did it not? ;) No reason the same thing couldn't happen here.

IIRC, we never actually see Romulus explode "live" (i.e. we don't see it as it happens). All we have to go on is a flashback to those events. And Nero, for example, is an unreliable narrator if I've ever heard one.

Now, TATV was always easy to retcon, simply because it took place on a holodeck. All we see of the fall of Romulus is other people's memory of those events, so there's a similar amount of wiggle room to play with there. Indeed, even more so, because memory is inherently less reliable than physical records.

And no, this is not a story idea either, so :razz: .
 
Indeed, it is because of the current storyline in STO that we now have the official name "Kelvin Timeline" for what we have been referring to as the "Abramsverse" for the past seven years.

Actually "Kelvin Timeline" was coined by Mike and Denise Okuda for the updated Star Trek Encyclopedia that's coming out soon. STO got the name from that and was able to use it first.


Wouldn't it be possible to not have Romulus destroyed in the novel timeline?

Not unless it were clearly marked as an alternate reality like Myriad Universes, I think.


I don't really understand why they can't just have Romulus be destroyed. Don't mention specifics. No involvement from Spock, nothing about Red Matter or supernovas. Just that Romulus was destroyed in a horrible circumstance.

That might be possible, depending on the specific parameters used by the approval process. Sometimes you're allowed to mention something even if you're not allowed to make it the focus of a story -- like how I was required to write out the Spider-Man cameo in my X-Men novel but was still allowed to mention that Spidey was involved in the action just a block away. But I'm not sure if that would apply here as well.


Conversely I don't see why they should even be bound to not contradict a film which they are at the same time not permitted to reference.

Because it's still part of the franchise we're tying into whether we get to use it or not. Star Trek is the universe defined by the onscreen canon. That is the real thing. We are telling conjectural stories that are set against the backdrop of that universe, by permission of its owners. Some of us get more limited permission than others, but that doesn't change the nature of the universe we're writing about. The fact that a licensee may have a lessened right to use every element of that universe does not somehow give them an increased right to redefine the very nature of that universe. It's like if someone lets you stay in their house but forbids you from going into their private workroom. The workroom is still part of their house, you just don't have access to it.

Back in the '90s, DC had the license to TOS and TNG, but Malibu had the license to DS9. That didn't allow DC to ignore DS9 or contradict it. They still had to be true to the entire canon; they just couldn't actively use every part of it. (Although they did collaborate with Malibu on a crossover miniseries.)


It's no different then Kirk recognizing Sarek in TFF even though it wasn't Mark Lenard. Or the hologram of T'Pau in "Darkling" not looking like Celia Lovsky, but still looking like T'Pau to the people in-universe. Or them swapping Owen Paris's actor from Warren Munson to Richard Herd.

Or the two Saaviks, the two DaiMon Boks, the two Zefram Cochranes, the three Tora Ziyals, etc.


With TOS, I do not like to accept the "evergreen" status. The original actors were the "template" to those iconic characters. I do not feel that those characters are "actor-interchangeable".

Except there are multiple instances where the actors were interchanged, like Saavik and the others. It's just a matter of what you're used to.

And really, the folks who cast the new movies did an astonishing job. The new ensemble is just fantastic, both at capturing the spirit of the characters and at just being damn good actors in their own right. There are a lot of things the movies get criticized for, but the casting hasn't really been one of them as far as I've heard. The new ensemble is solid proof that recasting can work, even with characters that have been strongly identified with a single actor for decades.


Consider: thirty years from now, will there be another re-casting if they stay with TOS characters?

Of course. That's what you do with enduring characters like Sherlock Holmes or James Bond or Tarzan or Batman or Hamlet or King Arthur or anyone else. Why should we condemn great roles like Kirk, Spock, and the others to cultural obsolescence by forbidding them from being reinvented for new generations like so many other great characters have been?

Really, for most of history, the norm was for most every character in drama to be played by multiple different actors. Since all people had were live plays, that was really the only way that people in different places and different generations could even know those characters. It's only in the past century or so since film came along -- a blink of an eye on the scale of human civilization -- that it's been possible to keep watching the same actors in the same roles in the same production even generations after the fact. So that's really an artificial limitation. How can it possibly be wrong to do something that was normal for all dramatic roles for thousands and thousands of years?


Again, TOS is not "evergreen", in my opinion.

Which sounds like a very negative thing to say about TOS. We're talking about a franchise whose core idea was about seeking out the new and embracing the future. How do you honor TOS by saying it should be an unchanging relic of the past?


The problem will occur with the next feature film and the Chekov character, will it not?

I think the most tasteful thing to do is to retire the character, to say that Chekov has been promoted and is off on the Reliant or some other ship. After all, Chekov was only in 36 episodes of TOS, less than half the series, and zero episodes of TAS. He's not an indispensable character.
 
I'm all for "seeking out the new and embracing the future" with a new cast of new characters, a new ship, new missions/voyages and new threats.

That's why I became excited in 1987 for TNG; the concept retained, but with an all-new (at the time) cast of new characters on new missions and new voyages. Fresh Star Trek!

Why couldn't CBS/Paramount have been that bold and that experimental enough to do that in 2009?

Because a feature film has to appeal to a broad, general audience. A broad, general audience that only knows STAR TREK as a few elements of TOS that have been in cultural existence for fifty years and readily pop into a general audience's thinking.

That's what was "sell-able". Not something all-new, and daring. Heaven forbid the company ignore the general audience in favor of the niche audience for that financial gain.

Now, the franchise is going back to "television" as a streaming venture. If it is indeed, all new characters, all new ships, all new adventures, ... I'll give a fair shot.

I tried to give the features that fair shot. I really did, since Leonard Nimoy signed off on them. But as I watched and re-watched them, the more frustrated and saddened I became.
"What have you done? Leave those characters alone!" ran through my mind.

TOS is not an "unchanging relic" but the foundation, the keystone, ... something to be treasured, fixed. In place. Supporting the whole. Telling more or new tales within the foundation/keystone: acceptable (in my opinion) in print, not live-action. Those limitations should be looked upon as "creative" restrictions.

TOS is not something to be reshaped to fill a financial balance sheet. The balance sheet has been filled enough.

My opinion.
 
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