Do you want ongoing novels on the Kelvin Universe

[Jinn]

The truth about how time travel works:

Now that is a big ball... A big ball of wib.. Nope not gonna say it.

 

[WebLurker]

We saw in Generations that changes in gravitation due to supernovae could affect the courses of starships (even though gravity should only propagate at the speed of light, not instantly). The gravitation from a wormhole could have a similar effect. Starships could be delayed or hastened, and people could have different interactions as a result. An asteroid that hit a planet could miss it, or vice versa.

Since the Nexus seemed to be a different dimension rather than a time portal, is it possible that the physics would be different?

Just because it didn't mention any other examples, that doesn't mean it ruled out other examples. It just means they didn't come up, or the characters didn't know about them. Characters aren't omniscient.

Besides, there's precedent for a single wormhole connecting to many times: the Bajoran wormhole. You can theoretically go into it and come out at any time in the past or future, like Akorem Laan did. If the red matter wormhole that originated in 2387 had destinations in both 2233 and 2258, why would it be limited to only those two dates? If it could have more than one output point, it seems entirely arbitrary to assume it couldn't have more than two.

I thought that Akorem came out in a different time (and was returned to his home time) because the wormhole aliens brought him two and from, not the wormhole itself.

Also my reasoning that the red matter black hole opened twice is because the accompanying "lightning storm" was on record twice. When Kirk hears that there's another lightning storm, he makes the connection to the 2233 incident. If there had been recordings of it in the past and after 2233, his reaction would make little sense. (Also the hole only seemed to open to kick the ship out and it doing it in different time seems to be connected to the fact that the Narada and Jellyfish went into the black hole at different moments.) I'm not saying that you're wrong for sure, but I'm not arbitrarily suggesting that it opened only twice, since I'm basing it on what we saw in the movie.

You keep saying this like this that are predicated on the assumption that ST physics has ever been logically and factually consistent. This is simply not true. ST is a universe that's been created by many different writers and producers with many different sets of assumptions, and only some of them have ever bothered to pay attention to science at all, and even those have been willing to take poetic license as needed for whatever story they were telling. There has never, in fifty years, been a Star Trek writer who said, "Oh, I can't tell this story because existing Trek science makes it impossible." They just make up new science or ignore the old.

True (although I know of some instances where they have not done something since it would've conflicted with a previous story, or took that into account). However, even so, if it conflicts, it's still a mistake.

Of course it depends! That's the whole damn point, that things don't have to happen in just one single way!

But do the circumstances makes sense for it to not happen in the same way?

Yes, I know that there's just enough consistency to create the illusion of a unified theory, because I wrote a whole book that did just that. I've mentioned that several times by now.

And how does the Okuda model stack up, compared to the actual episodes, do you think?

Nobody said "total." The idea is that the history is mostly the same (obviously, because it's still Star Trek and still has the Federation, Starfleet, the Enterprise, and the same characters), but that certain things in the past can be different if necessary.

Okay, fair enough. Poor choice of words on my part. You still didn't answer the question, though.

Why is that important? Many Trek stories have invented new phenomena that never came up before. Many Trek stories in the future are bound to do the same. Why should this particular one be any different?

A.) This was not made up in a story. This was a behind-the-scenes theory. Ergo, the actual onscreen information takes precedence. B.) Since it's a theory, I, as a viewer, have the right to say: "I don't think that makes sense. Is there another way that does or a way to look at the theory in a way that makes sense?

Evidence, schmevidence. It's fiction. They make stuff up. Deal with it.

Okay, that's the real life answer. I was asking it in the "Baker Street Irregular" sense.

 

[Christopher]

Since the Nexus seemed to be a different dimension rather than a time portal, is it possible that the physics would be different?

Trek has shown us "shock waves" propagating FTL in other contexts, notably the Praxis explosion in TUC and the supernova that destroyed Romulus in ST'09. I tend to assume there are subspace effects that propagate at high warp.

I thought that Akorem came out in a different time (and was returned to his home time) because the wormhole aliens brought him two and from, not the wormhole itself.

Same difference. The interior of the wormhole exists outside of time. Therefore, it's possible for someone to enter it in one time and emerge in a different time. The fact that the inhabitants of the wormhole control the outcome is irrelevant, because it's the intrinsic extratemporal physics of the wormhole that make it possible.

Also my reasoning that the red matter black hole opened twice is because the accompanying "lightning storm" was on record twice. When Kirk hears that there's another lightning storm, he makes the connection to the 2233 incident. If there had been recordings of it in the past and after 2233, his reaction would make little sense.

Again, you're making the mistake of assuming that characters are omniscient. Just because something isn't recorded, that doesn't mean it never happened. It just means nobody knows everything. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for sure, but I'm not arbitrarily suggesting that it opened only twice, since I'm basing it on what we saw in the movie.

That's not what I mean. It's not arbitrary to say it opened those two times, but it's completely arbitrary to say that it cannot have opened any other times. Just because you didn't see something, that does not constitute evidence that it didn't happen.

The way science works is that you take the evidence you have and extrapolate beyond it. You try to come up with a theory, a model that explains the existing evidence and allows you to make testable predictions beyond that evidence. So the evidence we have is that a wormhole opened more than once in different times. There are two possible models: One, that it opened only those two times, and two, that it could've opened in many times. What's the additional evidence we can bring to bear to support either of those theories? For the former theory... nada. There is no basis for ruling out the possibility of other openings that are undocumented. For the latter theory, we have the precedent of the Bajoran wormhole, proving that wormhole phenomena can be unstuck in time.

What you're getting backward is that I don't have to prove it did happen -- I'm merely postulating that it could have happened. You can't disprove that it's at least possible.

However, even so, if it conflicts, it's still a mistake.

Or it's a discrepancy that can be reconciled with a little creativity.

But do the circumstances makes sense for it to not happen in the same way?

Again: I don't have to prove they do. My point is simply that they can.

 

[WebLurker]

Trek has shown us "shock waves" propagating FTL in other contexts, notably the Praxis explosion in TUC and the supernova that destroyed Romulus in ST'09. I tend to assume there are subspace effects that propagate at high warp.

Very true, but I think I'm missing the connection to time travel.

Same difference. The interior of the wormhole exists outside of time. Therefore, it's possible for someone to enter it in one time and emerge in a different time. The fact that the inhabitants of the wormhole control the outcome is irrelevant, because it's the intrinsic extratemporal physics of the wormhole that make it possible.

I think "Eye of the Needle" (VOY) is a better example, since that shows a wormhole that traversed time. Still not sure if the Bajoran wormhole is a good example, but I'll agree on wormholes in general. (But was the red matter black hole a wormhole...)

Again, you're making the mistake of assuming that characters are omniscient. Just because something isn't recorded, that doesn't mean it never happened. It just means nobody knows everything. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That's not what I mean. It's not arbitrary to say it opened those two times, but it's completely arbitrary to say that it cannot have opened any other times. Just because you didn't see something, that does not constitute evidence that it didn't happen.

The way science works is that you take the evidence you have and extrapolate beyond it. You try to come up with a theory, a model that explains the existing evidence and allows you to make testable predictions beyond that evidence. So the evidence we have is that a wormhole opened more than once in different times. There are two possible models: One, that it opened only those two times, and two, that it could've opened in many times. What's the additional evidence we can bring to bear to support either of those theories? For the former theory... nada. There is no basis for ruling out the possibility of other openings that are undocumented. For the latter theory, we have the precedent of the Bajoran wormhole, proving that wormhole phenomena can be unstuck in time.

What you're getting backward is that I don't have to prove it did happen -- I'm merely postulating that it could have happened. You can't disprove that it's at least possible.

Fair enough. Would it be fair then, for me to say that it's not impossible, but I think it unlikely?

Or it's a discrepancy that can be reconciled with a little creativity.

Fair enough. (Although here we get into extreme subjectivity, since one person's reasonable answer can be completely unworkable to someone else.)

Again: I don't have to prove they do. My point is simply that they can.

Okay, I was just curious what the repercussions of introducing this new time travel mechanic into the Star Trek universe and if that might change the way we view past stories.

 

[Christopher]

Very true, but I think I'm missing the connection to time travel.

You were asking how the effects of wormholes opening in the past could cause changes in historical events. It's documented that gravitational effects from cosmic phenomena can affect starships' courses, and that's one possible way in which historical events could be affected by the gravity from a wormhole opening in the past.

I think "Eye of the Needle" (VOY) is a better example, since that shows a wormhole that traversed time.

That was a wormhole connection only two fixed times. Someone entering the Delta Quadrant end could only come out in the Alpha Quadrant 20 years earlier, not at any other time. That's actually quite "normal" for wormholes. The Bajoran wormhole is distinct from that because its interior exists in every time simultaneously, and thus someone entering it could theoretically emerge at any time in history. In canon, we've seen this with Akorem Laan, and in the novels we've seen it used as the explanation for the Jem'Hadar fleet's disappearance in "Sacrifice of Angels" as well as being used to send Kira on journeys into Bajor's distant past or to the events of the Ascendant conflict.

(But was the red matter black hole a wormhole...)

Yes, of course it was. If it has an entrance and an exit, then by definition it's a wormhole. A black hole has an entrance but no exit. Sometimes it can be unclear whether something is a black hole or a wormhole, because the exit may be in a totally different spacetime continuum, so that it functions as a black hole as far as you can discern, but if you fell through and came out somewhere else, you'd find it was actually a wormhole.

Fair enough. Would it be fair then, for me to say that it's not impossible, but I think it unlikely?

Yeah, but I think it's splitting hairs, because I'm not saying "This is THE answer," I'm just offering it as one of several possibilities. You'll recall I listed three possible answers for the question of how a time-travel event could have a retroactive effect -- mine, Idran's, and the Okudas'. And if there are three possibilities, there may well be more. So it's something that can't be ruled out.

 

[Jinn]

And if there are three possibilities, there may well be more. So it's something that can't be ruled out.

Or Dayton is right and there's only Captain Proton...

 

[WebLurker]

You were asking how the effects of wormholes opening in the past could cause changes in historical events. It's documented that gravitational effects from cosmic phenomena can affect starships' courses, and that's one possible way in which historical events could be affected by the gravity from a wormhole opening in the past.

Okay.

That was a wormhole connection only two fixed times. Someone entering the Delta Quadrant end could only come out in the Alpha Quadrant 20 years earlier, not at any other time. That's actually quite "normal" for wormholes. The Bajoran wormhole is distinct from that because its interior exists in every time simultaneously, and thus someone entering it could theoretically emerge at any time in history. In canon, we've seen this with Akorem Laan, and in the novels we've seen it used as the explanation for the Jem'Hadar fleet's disappearance in "Sacrifice of Angels" as well as being used to send Kira on journeys into Bajor's distant past or to the events of the Ascendant conflict.

Didn't know that the novels had used that explanation. Out of curiosity then, how would the interior exists in all times still allow starships going through to enter and exit it while staying in the same timeframe (the Wormhole pretty consistently acts like a cosmic Northwest Passage and the only times that it creates time travel seem to be when the aliens who create it directly intervene, or some other freak of nature)?

Yes, of course it was. If it has an entrance and an exit, then by definition it's a wormhole. A black hole has an entrance but no exit. Sometimes it can be unclear whether something is a black hole or a wormhole, because the exit may be in a totally different spacetime continuum, so that it functions as a black hole as far as you can discern, but if you fell through and came out somewhere else, you'd find it was actually a wormhole.

Okay, although I'm not sure that the people who wrote the movie were paying that close attention to how much sense the black hole/wormhole made sense.

Yeah, but I think it's splitting hairs, because I'm not saying "This is THE answer," I'm just offering it as one of several possibilities. You'll recall I listed three possible answers for the question of how a time-travel event could have a retroactive effect -- mine, Idran's, and the Okudas'. And if there are three possibilities, there may well be more. So it's something that can't be ruled out.

All right then.

 

[Christopher]

Out of curiosity then, how would the interior exists in all times still allow starships going through to enter and exit it while staying in the same timeframe (the Wormhole pretty consistently acts like a cosmic Northwest Passage and the only times that it creates time travel seem to be when the aliens who create it directly intervene, or some other freak of nature)?

Like I keep saying, things don't always have to happen the exact same way. The conditions of an environment can allow for multiple possibilities, and one may be the normal, routine way things happen, but that doesn't preclude other variations that are allowed within its rules. For instance, the normal way to move on Earth is across the ground or over the water, but we also figured out ways to move through the air, under the water, or underground. A norm does not preclude exceptions, and exceptions do not preclude the norm.

The point is not to say that red matter wormholes are exactly like the Bajoran wormhole. That's not how examples work. The point is that the Bajoran wormhole demonstrates that wormholes don't have to be fixed in time. Again, I'm only arguing that these things are possible, nothing more.

 

[WebLurker]

Like I keep saying, things don't always have to happen the exact same way. The conditions of an environment can allow for multiple possibilities, and one may be the normal, routine way things happen, but that doesn't preclude other variations that are allowed within its rules. For instance, the normal way to move on Earth is across the ground or over the water, but we also figured out ways to move through the air, under the water, or underground. A norm does not preclude exceptions, and exceptions do not preclude the norm.

The point is not to say that red matter wormholes are exactly like the Bajoran wormhole. That's not how examples work. The point is that the Bajoran wormhole demonstrates that wormholes don't have to be fixed in time. Again, I'm only arguing that these things are possible, nothing more.

Okay.

For the sake of discussion, do you think there are any negatives or weak points in this model, as far as it goes for Star Trek stories? For that matter, do you think there are any benefits (besides the idea that the storytellers can reimagine anything they want, which has been discussed before)?

 

[Christopher]

For the sake of discussion, do you think there are any negatives or weak points in this model, as far as it goes for Star Trek stories? For that matter, do you think there are any benefits (besides the idea that the storytellers can reimagine anything they want, which has been discussed before)?

Well, that is the main benefit, the storytelling freedom it offers. I don't see much in the way of drawbacks from a storytelling standpoint, since, again, it doesn't have to be used in every case, just in stories where it's useful. The other benefit is that it makes sense in a way I hadn't realized before; as I've mentioned, it's self-contradictory to acknowledge retrocausality in the form of traveling backward in time to change history, yet to deny the potential for retrocausality in the form of that change also traveling backward in time.

The negative is the same as that of most time-travel fiction, namely, that it does stretch plausibility to an extreme degree. There are very few time-travel stories that really make consistent, logical sense; ultimately it's a storytelling device and it requires a ton of suspension of disbelief. The most realistic treatment of time travel is to say it can't happen, period. The second-most realistic is to say it can't change anything, or that any change merely creates an alternate timeline while the original continues unchanged. Anything other than that is getting into handwave territory.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

any change merely creates an alternate timeline while the original continues unchanged.

Even with this 'retrocausality' model that Pegg has suggested?

If so, I guess I don't mind. As long as the Prime timeline isn't wiped out, the Kelvinverse can do what it likes.

 

[Idran]

Even with this 'retrocausality' model that Pegg has suggested?

If so, I guess I don't mind. As long as the Prime timeline isn't wiped out, the Kelvinverse can do what it likes.

Oh yeah, that's been the point the whole time. This was never supposed to mean that the Prime universe was wiped out, just that the alternate timeline that was formed had changes at points before 2233 too. That there were more differences between the two than just from 2233 onwards.

 

[Avro Arrow]

The truth about how time travel works:

At least when you're done traveling, you'll have a big yarn to tell...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Stop stringing us along like a knit wit.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Crochet-ame (Cro-shame) on you.

 

[Desert Kris]

The Kelvin universe's film makers have always sewed the seeds of the idea that the Kelvin timeline cooexists side by side with the Prime timeline, and the Prime timeline was not overwritten or destroyed.

 

[WebLurker]

The Kelvin universe's film makers have always sewed the seeds of the idea that the Kelvin timeline cooexists side by side with the Prime timeline, and the Prime timeline was not overwritten or destroyed.

The thing is, is that it's such a different model from anything ever used before in the franchise, that some of us are are still adjusting, and aren't sure if it fits into the previous world-building, which leads to disagreement as to how we view what we're seeing (as you can see by the stuff Mr. Bennett and myself have been saying).

 

[Nyotarules]

ST TNG 'Parallels' showed there were multiple versions of the ST universe, so Prime Spock should have a different quantum signature from his Kelvin Spock.

 

[Christopher]

The thing is, is that it's such a different model from anything ever used before in the franchise, that some of us are are still adjusting, and aren't sure if it fits into the previous world-building, which leads to disagreement as to how we view what we're seeing (as you can see by the stuff Mr. Bennett and myself have been saying).

Err, that's not at all what Desert Kris was talking about. First of all, he was making a "sewed" pun in response the puns in the previous posts. Second, he was talking about the idea that was established all the way back in 2009 -- that the Kelvin Timeline was a parallel history rather than a replacement for the Prime Timeline -- and that's completely distinct from the question of whether the Kelvin Timeline was different before 2233 as well as after it.

 

[Idran]

Err, that's not at all what Desert Kris was talking about. First of all, he was making a "sewed" pun in response the puns in the previous posts. Second, he was talking about the idea that was established all the way back in 2009 -- that the Kelvin Timeline was a parallel history rather than a replacement for the Prime Timeline -- and that's completely distinct from the question of whether the Kelvin Timeline was different before 2233 as well as after it.

To be fair, I didn't realize it was a pun post either until I saw the ""