Do you think Trek has always been 'dark'?

[Joel_Kirk]

Ever since DS9, it seems that Trek has gotten 'darker;' we've seen the questioning of the Federation/Starfleet and how things work; even some villains have their own demons which have them questioning their motives.

Sisko would skirt the line for the greater good; furthermore, you had various wars going on: Dominion War, Tzenkethi war, the short Klingon war (which had Klingons temporarily turning and killing Starfleet before they came together--again--in order to stop the Dominion).

VOY had Janeway....

Of course, even during TOS, there were crazy commanders, Admirals, crewman, etc...even though it was supposed to be a utopia. (Of course, in ST6, there are human crewmembers who are xenophobic to Klingons).

For the supposed 'evolved' Picard of TNG, would have that character drop all preachy, self-righteous morals if the situation involved the Borg...or if situations called for it. (Too, even in TNG, there were questionable Admirals, crewmembers, etc...seeing that the era wasn't as evolved as Picard boasted).

Even Archer's era wasn't exactly 'evolved,' even though he would proclaim so when talking to other species. (Politics on Earth, politics on the ship, etc...)

Trek 2009 even had space be a dangerous place. [Hey, that rhymes!]

The examples can go on and on....

I'm thinking about a million things at once--999, 999 of those things are non-Trek related, I assure you--so I'll post some additional thoughts later...

 

[Myasishchev]

Interestingly, I think TOS might have had more genocide than any other series. But they usually laughed it off. Which might actually make it darker.

 

[Sector 7]

DS9 did start a trend towards a darker future. IMO, they lost the optimism TOS, and to some extent TNG, had. One of the things I like about ST09 is the optimism about the future is back.

 

[Orcus]

Yes, there are some really dark patches even amongst the "light" of the supposed "evolved" peoples of the future. However, I think this is inevitible: underneath the veneer of futuristic, escapist adventure there is a need to tell stories about people that is, largely, a universal one in order for we, the audience of today's world, to relate to their situation. That includes concepts like xenophobia, mental/moral breakdowns and conflict in order to create drama.

Philosophically speaking, I think we will always have trouble curbing our more 'destructive' competitive streak - it's what helped to propel us to the 'top of the food chain' after all...

 

[DevilEyes]

Ever since DS9, it seems that Trek has gotten 'darker;' we've seen the questioning of the Federation/Starfleet and how things work; even some villains have their own demons which have them questioning their motives.

Sisko would skirt the line for the greater good; furthermore, you had various wars going on: Dominion War, Tzenkethi war, the short Klingon war (which had Klingons temporarily turning and killing Starfleet before they came together--again--in order to stop the Dominion).

VOY had Janeway....

Of course, even during TOS, there were crazy commanders, Admirals, crewman, etc...even though it was supposed to be a utopia. (Of course, in ST6, there are human crewmembers who are xenophobic to Klingons).

For the supposed 'evolved' Picard of TNG, would have that character drop all preachy, self-righteous morals if the situation involved the Borg...or if situations called for it. (Too, even in TNG, there were questionable Admirals, crewmembers, etc...seeing that the era wasn't as evolved as Picard boasted).

Even Archer's era wasn't exactly 'evolved,' even though he would proclaim so when talking to other species. (Politics on Earth, politics on the ship, etc...)

Trek 2009 even had space be a dangerous place. [Hey, that rhymes!]

The examples can go on and on....

ITA. A while ago someone posted on IMDB DS9 board that she disliked DS9 because it was 'too dark' and not suitable to show to her children, which TOS, TNG and VOY allegedly are. That made me ask her if she was comfortable with all the TOS, TNG and VOY episodes that featured murder, torture, genocide, mass murder, attempted rape, mind rape and so on. All the Trek series have quite a few 'dark' episodes and plots. Starfleet and Federation have never been portrayed as perfect, except in monologues by Kirk, Picard etc. - there were always corrupt admirals, crazy rogue captains, and a fair amount of racism and xenophobia (the only difference being that it is always exclusively directed at aliens - humans don't seem to have that kind of problem along themselves, but that's not so much a sign of evolved sensibilities, just the likely result of having the Human identity defined against aliens as 'others') - see Balance of Terror, Day of the Dove, The Undiscovered Country, The Drumhead, The Wounded...not to mention Nothing Human (an episode that deserves a special mention from me for apparently doing everything to justify some of the character's racism, instead of calling them on it, as every other one mentioned did ).

 

[The Wormhole]

There is nothing "dark" about anything in Star Trek. Not even in DS9.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

There is nothing "dark" about anything in Star Trek. Not even in DS9.

The lighting was much darker. Darker palette. More shadows and stuff.
So it literally WAS. Some people get that confused, though, and associate that with dark themes as well. Which it of course had.

 

[DevilEyes]

There is nothing "dark" about anything in Star Trek. Not even in DS9.

There's plenty dark in Star Trek. Even if you disregard DS9. As I said - death, mass murder, genocide, rape, torture, insanity, racism, xenophobia, corruption, crazy rogue captains turned dictators, creepy stuff happening to Our Heroes, and sometimes even Our Heroes doing immoral and criminal things.

for instance:
TOS:
Dagger of the Mind
Conscience of the King
Balance of Terror
The Enemy Within
The Doomsday Machine
A Private Little War
Whom Gods Destroy
The Empath
Let That Be Your Last Battlefield

TNG:
Chain of Command
The Best of Both Worlds
The Wounded
The Drumhead
The Defector
Sins of the Father
Reunion
The First Duty
Lower Decks
Dark Page
Schisms
Phantasms
Frame of Mind (most of the episode is basically Riker's delusions, which aren't pleasant to watch)
Homeward (the suicide of what's-his-name)

VOY:
Jetrel
Meld
Faces (the Vidiian does a very creepy thing to one of the redshirts)
Resistance
Remember
Tuvix
Year of Hell (without the reset button)
Equinox
Mortal Coil
Retrospect
Course: Oblivion
Hope and Fear
The Void

Parts of ENT Xindi arc are very dark, especially Damage. Cogenitor is up there as well.

and the movies: The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, The Undiscovered Country, First Contact, STXI, feature a lot of deaths, as well as racism, genocide etc. Plus Nemesis has a (telepathic) rape scene for absolutely no reason at all (except to show how eeevil the villain is ).

 

[DonIago]

If by 'darker' you mean 'more realistic and true to human nature' than I agree.

 

[SFRabid]

Some of it, yes. But nothing like BG. There is dark, and then there is drive it into the ground depressingly dark. ST does a good job of including enough dark episodes to make the light more noticable.

 

[Sci]

The darkness of DS9 is greatly exaggerated. Certainly DS9 questioned how easily TNG had tended to portray the idea of utopia, and was skeptical of the idea that human nature is malleable. But whatever else might be true of DS9, DS9 still fundamentally reaffirmed the idea that a better future and better choices are possible.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

If by 'darker' you mean 'more realistic and true to human nature' than I agree.

Yes....that's it.

The darkness of DS9 is greatly exaggerated. Certainly DS9 questioned how easily TNG had tended to portray the idea of utopia, and was skeptical of the idea that human nature is malleable. But whatever else might be true of DS9, DS9 still fundamentally reaffirmed the idea that a better future and better choices are possible.

 

[T'Girl]

The darkness was exaggerated, but so was the utopia.

You can stand on the sidewalk and look at the filth in the gutter, you don't have to step into it. One of the reasons Kirk is my favorite captain is that he know that he has, down inside of himself, a dark, calculating, mean side. It doesn't bother him because he can control it, Kirk can get down in the gutter if he has to, but then climb back out again. And he can continue to be a good man. 'I'm a killer - but I won't kill today.' Kirk doesn't live in a utopian world.

Picard could never accept his darkness, denied it's existence. Archer was almost psychologically destroyed went he was forced to drag his out to face the Xindi. Janeway I don't believe ever had a ethical compass. Sisko it hard to say.

 

[Edinburgh]

I love it when star trek goes dark/bad. DS9 was my favorite trek for that reason.

To repeat the famous line, spoken by Quark.......


"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people – as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."


"Well, haven't you got anything to say?"


Nog......

"I feel sorry for the Jem'Hadar."

 

[RandyS]

Star Trek has just the right balance of light and dark. It's not perfect (despite what TNG tried to show), but it works in both ways.

Now, you want dark, try New Battlestar Galactica. The darkness and angst in that show is so completely over the top that Star Trek (DS9's darker moments included) is positiviely Pollyanna by comparison.

 

[Sci]

Now, you want dark, try New Battlestar Galactica. The darkness and angst in that show is so completely over the top that Star Trek (DS9's darker moments included) is positiviely Pollyanna by comparison.

I don't think that's a fair description of BSG. I mean, the show starts off with the annihilation of human civilization; if anything, I'd say that the angst is probably not quite as bad as it would likely realistically be.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Interestingly, I think TOS might have had more genocide than any other series. But they usually laughed it off. Which might actually make it darker.

Examples please? Genocide is serious charge. Was the Dikironium creature really the only one? Ditto the Salt Vampire.

Also if one believes general order 24 was not a bluff it certainly was never carried out.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Okay, here is a thought:

Since we've established that Trek is not the perfect utopia it was alleged to be[although, it has made some ecological strides, etc], so where does it go from there? Trek 2009 has given us the 'fun' and 'adventure'....but even Vulcans are as perfect as some claim to be....

It would seem a bit double-standard if Kirk and co. talk to other worlds about the Starfleet/Federation way...

Would they be exploring just to be exploring?

Would they be exploring to attaining knowledge? (This would be interesting, since they introduced 'Q' who was supposed to be 'perfect' but didn't come off as such).

I'm just throwing questions out there...

 

[Sci]

Okay, here is a thought:

Since we've established that Trek is not the perfect utopia it was alleged to be[although, it has made some ecological strides, etc],

Oh, it's more than ecological strides. The Federation has some very serious flaws, but it's a monumental improvement over present-day societies. It's eliminated poverty and hunger, it's eliminated almost all forms of bigotry, it's eliminated economic classism. The Federation is as close to a genuinely egalitarian democracy as it's possible to have.

I'm fairly critical of the Federation at times -- I think it can be a deeply ethnocentric society -- but I think it's absurd to claim that the Federation is not a better society by leaps and bounds than modern-day societies.

so where does it go from there? Trek 2009 has given us the 'fun' and 'adventure'....but even Vulcans are as perfect as some claim to be....

I would suggest that the writers need to look at the general zeitgeist of American political culture and figure out how to respond to that. If ST09 was Batman Begins, then its sequel needs to be The Dark Knight -- and the reason The Dark Knight resonated with people and became such a huge hit was that it spoke to how Americans felt about the times they were living in. It was released in the summer of 2008, when people were fed up with the Bush Administration, desperate for better leadership, and there was a general lack of faith in society's institutions; The Dark Knight was ultimately a story about a society that is falling apart, and so it resonated with people.

The next Trek film needs to find something to say that will resonate with people about where we are at that point in our history -- and just as the Batman films ground their stories in the darkness of the Batman mythos, the next Trek film needs to find something to say that will resonate while also grounding it in Trek's essential optimism.

 

[Sector 7]

Well said, Sci. I agree with your assessment of where Star Trek needs to go from here. Trek's optimism about the future sets it apart from almost every other franchise.