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Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient races?

Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

That said I agree with the Prime Directive to some degree. I reckon it's not the Federation's place to police the galaxy. Even still, cases should be made in humanitarian issues, like global destruction and/or catastrophe.

Of course, on the other hand, Starfleet can't play watchdog over pre-warp planets and step in in the event something threatens them. Perhaps this whole "can not help pre-warp survive destruction" started off with relatively benign origins, it was simply a means of not making anyone feel bad over not saving a planet from a natural disaster. After all, when it comes to saving the tribe on planet Nibiru from a volcano or stopping a Klingon invasion fleet, which do you think is going to take priority? And then over time a much stricter and definition took hold, shifting from you can not be expected to save a pre-warp civilization from natural disasters to you must not save pre-warp civilizations from natural disasters.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

That's just Picard's own asinine adherence to the "letter of the law" rather than Starfleet.

When Picard eventually did help the indigenous peoples of both worlds (although it was more thanks to Worf's brother and Data respectively), Starfleet didn't do anything to punish Picard... probably because Starfleet Command understands something called the "spirit of the law".

In 'Homeward', Picard respected the Prime Directive, letting an entire species die (minus a few, saved without his knowledge). For this, Starfleet did nothing to punish his actions or dicourage similar actions in the future.

Like I said earlier, Pike was just angry at Kirk not trusting him enough to tell him the truth in his report. The crap about the Prime Directive is just Pike blasting Kirk because he was pissed.

(Alternate take: Pike also has an asinine adherence to the letter of the law rather than the spirit.)

In STID, Kirk broke the Prime Directive, saving an entire species. For this, Pine made clear he de facto had no choice other than demoting Kirk. And he tried to help Kirk as much as he could by his subsequent actions. Starfleet ratified Kirk's demotion due to his breaking the Prime Directive as a matter of course.


The writers' intent was made exceedingly obvious. So much so, that any attempt to interpret the episodes/latest movie in a different way is plagued by convolution and inconsistency.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

The PD was just a cheap drama device, only a baby-step above technobabble deus ex machina, that lets the show have conflict in a situation where there otherwise wouldn't be one - it lets Our Heroes do the obvious Right Thing that they can easily do (otherwise it would go with the deus ex), and there will be no repercussions because it was the obvious Right Thing To Do. Maybe even there could be character conflict, but everyone gets to have a moral victory! Perfect for a show like TNG or VOY.

As for actually saving an uninhabited planet...that depends. While saving the planet would let them preserve species or whatever, letting the disaster happen would be a good chance to observe and study an ecosystem deal with said disaster. And the resources, if applicable, won't be going anywhere in either case.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

At the time, I chose to believe that in the events of "Homeward", everything happened so fast that nothing could be done. After all, had there been time, I have to believe that Worf's brother would be lobbying the Federation to do something.

Also regarding the PD, I've said in the past that since the PD only seems to apply to SF and not citizens, after all they didn't arrest Worf's brother....there has to be some kind of Interstellar Greenpeace running around. Maybe they're the ones who usually take care of natural disasters.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

In 'Homeward', Picard respected the Prime Directive, letting an entire species die (minus a few, saved without his knowledge). For this, Starfleet did nothing to punish his actions or dicourage similar actions in the future.

I disagree. I think that Picard disrespected the intent of the Prime Directive by following its letter rather than its spirit.

It isn't Starfleet's responsibility to save everyone and everything. They're not going to encourage interference. Ultimately, though, Starfleet gives its captains a lot of leeway. If Picard decides to save a planet (like in "Pen Pals" with great resistance), Starfleet isn't going to punish Picard either.

Picard has violated the Prime Directive 9 times in his first 4 years as the Enterprise's captain (including that time in "Pen Pals"), according to "The Drumhead". Starfleet didn't do anything after any of that.

In STID, Kirk broke the Prime Directive, saving an entire species. For this, Pine made clear he de facto had no choice other than demoting Kirk. And he tried to help Kirk as much as he could by his subsequent actions. Starfleet ratified Kirk's demotion due to his breaking the Prime Directive as a matter of course.


The writers' intent was made exceedingly obvious. So much so, that any attempt to interpret the episodes/latest movie in a different way is plagued by convolution and inconsistency.

As Pike said, some of Starfleet's admiralty was having second thoughts about Kirk's promotion. They probably were looking for an excuse for Kirk to be demoted. Lying on an official report (especially with regards to a matter relating to the Prime Directive) probably gave them more than enough ammunition to reverse Kirk's promotion.

To be fair, I agree that the writer's intent was that Kirk crossed some line by breaking the Prime Directive because he was "reckless" and "immature".

The problem is that as viewers, we see that letting the sapient species die out as being exceedingly inhumane (and I think that you and I agree on this), so it's easier to believe in a plausible (if somewhat more convoluted) alternate theory.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

... Starfleet can't play watchdog over pre-warp planets and step in in the event something threatens them.
Starfleet would have to know about a problem and be in a position to do something about it.

After all, when it comes to saving the tribe on planet Nibiru from a volcano or stopping a Klingon invasion fleet, which do you think is going to take priority?
That falls under being in a position to do something about it, you look after you and yours first, then you help others if you can.

If Picard decides to save a planet (like in "Pen Pals" with great resistance), Starfleet isn't going to punish Picard either.
The argument however can be made that Data was punished for his initial actions in communicating with an inhabitant of a pre-warp planet, it did seem that Data was a lieutenant commander for a unusually long time.

And the resources, if applicable, won't be going anywhere in either case.
We have seen that some medicines can only be found on single planets. Wipe a planet clean of life and the metallic ores would still be in place, but any advantages arising from that unique eco-system would be gone.

For the most part I agree, although I prefer to believe that there's just one version of the Prime Directive, written in the same way in textbooks scattered throughout Starfleet Academy. It's how it's interpreted that is different.
My take is that (especially during TOS) the prime directive was in a state of flux and subject to change, it's possible that the prime directive as general order was relatively new, not well thought out and had to be amended several times.

This might explain some of Kirk's actions, he wasn't breaking the PD, it's just that every week or so he was receiving the latest updates and revisions.

If the prime directive originated with the federation council and not internally with Starfleet, then as various council members come and go the PD get reinterpreted, rewritten and it various sections assigned different levels of priorities.


:)
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

The writers' intent was made exceedingly obvious. So much so, that any attempt to interpret the episodes/latest movie in a different way is plagued by convolution and inconsistency.

I disagree. Spock went along with covertly saving the Niburu. His only objection, seemingly, is Kirk overtly using the Enterprise to save him.

Kirk also says the reason he didn't file an accurate report on the events is because he had to save Spock.

Seems to me, that the saving of the Niburu wasn't Starfleet's primary concern regarding the events. It was Kirk openly showing off the Enterprise then filing an inaccurate report on the events that transpired that lost him his command. He showed poor judgement.

Plus, Pike might have been a bit pissed that Kirk lied to his face when questioned. Which would explain his anger. Just like one gets a bit pissed when one of their kids lie to them.

YMMV.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

There's nothing Picard could have done in "Homeward." By the time they arrived the planet was already dying and the entire atmosphere up and disappeared within hours. The most he could have done was beam a few thousand people aboard. This is what he probably should have done, yes - but he shouldn't have based a decision about who to beam aboard on whether or not Nikolai Rosenko happened to be sleeping with one of them.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

The problem is that as viewers, we see that letting the sapient species die out as being exceedingly inhumane (and I think that you and I agree on this), so it's easier to believe in a plausible (if somewhat more convoluted) alternate theory.

This 24th Century Prime Directive is, indeed, exceedingly inhumane. But the only way to present it differently is to pretend a number of episodes/movie doesn't exist.

In 'Homeward' and 'Pen pals' part of the Prime Directive is expressed as "it's better to let the sapient species die rather than them coming to know we exist, culturally contaminating them".
In 'Pen pals', it was lucky that Data unkowingly make contact. And that the species could be saved without further contact.
In 'Homeward' Picard didn't even try to beam as many thousands of sapients on his ship as he could. He didn't even try to beam up one - despite having nothing better to do. No one in the 'enlightened' crew commented in the least the decision.

Most damning for any attempted alternate explanation is all the theorizing about the Prime Directive in those episodes - by Picard&crew - making their view-point clear.
See the episodes; then let me know if you can find a chink in all their redundant posturing.

In STID, Spock was shocked that Kirk saved him by breaking the Prime Directive (letting the natives see the enterprise). Apparently, rather than letting natives see you, you should let them die - and sacrifice members of your crew, as well.

The scenarists went further down this path in quite a few episodes - such as Ent 'The Communicator', 'Dear doctor', in a few Voy episodes, etc.


As for the 'reasons' for the 24th century Prime Directive:
Apparently, cultural 'contamination' is irredeemably evil; it's better to sacrifice the natives or yourself, letting the natives remain 'clean', 'uncontaminated'.*
If contact was made without you being at fault - or the species was 'ready' for contact - apparently, disturbing the 'natural' evolution of a species is irredeemably evil.**
Another argument presented for the 24th century Prime Directive is a slippery slope fallacy.

*this is a joke, sociologically speaking. Also, in that death is better than 'contamination'.
**this is a joke, badly misrepresenting darwinian evolution.
That the federation even dared to open a channel to talk - considering their fear of interference in the 'natural' evolution of someone else - is a wonder. As such, the federation's exploration spirit is blatantly contradictory with the Prime Directive.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

There's nothing Picard could have done in "Homeward." By the time they arrived the planet was already dying and the entire atmosphere up and disappeared within hours.

I agree there was nothing that Picard could have done. Where my dislike comes in is how cold he is to the whole situation, just babbling on about the Prime Directive.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

There's nothing Picard could have done in "Homeward." By the time they arrived the planet was already dying and the entire atmosphere up and disappeared within hours.

I agree there was nothing that Picard could have done. Where my dislike comes in is how cold he is to the whole situation, just babbling on about the Prime Directive.

Like Pulaski says in "Pen Pals", it seems "very callous and even a little cowardly" to just go on with "abstract intellectualizing" the way Picard does.

This 24th Century Prime Directive is, indeed, exceedingly inhumane. But the only way to present it differently is to pretend a number of episodes/movie doesn't exist.

Picard's interpretation of the Prime Directive is what we're presented with. We don't see any other captain's interpretation, because those are apparently the only two episodes in 24th century Trek that deal with natural disasters and the PD, according to Memory-Alpha. If I am incorrect and forgetting more episodes, please feel free to embarrass me. ;)

In 'Homeward' and 'Pen pals' part of the Prime Directive is expressed as "it's better to let the sapient species die rather than them coming to know we exist, culturally contaminating them".

In 'Pen pals', it was lucky that Data unkowingly make contact. And that the species could be saved without further contact.
In scene 24 of the "Pen Pals" script, there are different interpretations of the Prime Directive, which would not be the case if it plainly stated that extinction-level natural disasters cannot be interfered with.

For letting them all die: Picard, Riker, Worf
For saving them all: Data, Pulaski, LaForge, Troi

The Prime Directive appears to be a general non-interference directive (same in both the 23rd and 24th centuries), and Picard takes the opportunity to conflate war and oppressive governments with natural disasters in order to support his viewpoint.

In 'Homeward' Picard didn't even try to beam as many thousands of sapients on his ship as he could. He didn't even try to beam up one - despite having nothing better to do. No one in the 'enlightened' crew commented in the least the decision.
For letting them all die: Picard, Riker, Worf, Troi (traitor!)
For saving who they can: Nikolai, Crusher

Notice that Data and LaForge weren't invited this time.

Dr. Crusher states that the Enterprise crew is interfering either way. "If we take no action, it's a conscious decision to let the Boraalans die."

As for "enlightened" (another Picard-ism, by the way), I think that Lily in STFC shot that idea out of the sky.

Most damning for any attempted alternate explanation is all the theorizing about the Prime Directive in those episodes - by Picard&crew - making their view-point clear.
See the episodes; then let me know if you can find a chink in all their redundant posturing.
This isn't an alternate explanation. Picard has surrounded himself with mostly like-minded individuals. There's nothing to indicate that the Prime Directive has changed, only the crew that we're following on TV.

Final Tally:
-For letting species die from natural disasters: Picard, Riker, Worf
-Depends on how much chocolate she had before the meeting: Troi
-For saving species from extinction from natural disasters: Data, Pulaski, Crusher, LaForge (bonus: Nikolai)

In STID, Spock was shocked that Kirk saved him by breaking the Prime Directive (letting the natives see the enterprise). Apparently, rather than letting natives see you, you should let them die - and sacrifice members of your crew, as well.
Spock agreed with saving them. It was his device, after all, and he jumped into the volcano. He was willing to die to prevent contamination, but it was his choice. (Kirk just overruled it.)

The scenarists went further down this path in quite a few episodes - such as Ent 'The Communicator', 'Dear doctor', in a few Voy episodes, etc.
In "The Communicator", it was more of a misunderstanding by the aliens, and Archer and Reed refusing to give any information to their captors.

In "Dear Doctor", Archer gives the planet's inhabitants medicine but refuses to give them warp drive technology, which seems fine.


As for the 'reasons' for the 24th century Prime Directive:
Apparently, cultural 'contamination' is irredeemably evil; it's better to sacrifice the natives or yourself, letting the natives remain 'clean', 'uncontaminated'.*
If contact was made without you being at fault - or the species was 'ready' for contact - apparently, disturbing the 'natural' evolution of a species is irredeemably evil.**
Another argument presented for the 24th century Prime Directive is a slippery slope fallacy.

*this is a joke, sociologically speaking. Also, in that death is better than 'contamination'.
**this is a joke, badly misrepresenting darwinian evolution.
That the federation even dared to open a channel to talk - considering their fear of interference in the 'natural' evolution of someone else - is a wonder. As such, the federation's exploration spirit is blatantly contradictory with the Prime Directive.
As I stated, I think that the PD is the same as it always has been. It's how people interpret it that varies.

Cultural contamination has been shown as a bad thing since TOS. Remember the gangster planet and Nazi planet? (At least they were more interesting than the Irish planet and Scottish planet in TNG.)

Federation scientists and Starfleet do take care to not interfere when they don't have to. Exploration without causing a mess is possible.

As for the Federation contacting other worlds when they achieve warp drive and unified world governments, one viewpoint would be that the Federation believes that the world would be sufficiently developed that they would see the Federation as a union of equals rather than an alliance of superior civilizations. A more cynical viewpoint would be that a world would actually be able to contribute to the Federation only after achieving warp drive.
 
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Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

This 24th Century Prime Directive is, indeed, exceedingly inhumane. But the only way to present it differently is to pretend a number of episodes/movie doesn't exist.

You say that like that's a bad thing . . . .

I'm perfectly comfortable with ignoring "Homeward." :)
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Even in the 23rd century the PD lines were blurred.
On Tyree's planet and in Friday's child the Federation (not Kirk) was quite willing to negotiate with pre-Warp planets if there was dilithium or special medicines up for grabs.

I think the PD in theory is a good thing that would stop the Federation enforcing its own ethics on every civilisation it encounters. Its not just there to be a plot device IMO.

In the 24th century you weren't even allowed to interfere with a Warp-Capable planet's internal affairs. However I reckon if a non-Federation Warp-capable planet had something the Federation needed (like a weapon for defeating the Dominion or eternal life (INS)) the Federation would jump right in and ignore the PD if something was in it for them.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

The argument however can be made that Data was punished for his initial actions in communicating with an inhabitant of a pre-warp planet, it did seem that Data was a lieutenant commander for a unusually long time.

The ultimate decision to "interfere", however, fell on Picard's shoulders. Starfleet clearly didn't think anything of it.

My take is that (especially during TOS) the prime directive was in a state of flux and subject to change, it's possible that the prime directive as general order was relatively new, not well thought out and had to be amended several times.

This might explain some of Kirk's actions, he wasn't breaking the PD, it's just that every week or so he was receiving the latest updates and revisions.

If the prime directive originated with the federation council and not internally with Starfleet, then as various council members come and go the PD get reinterpreted, rewritten and it various sections assigned different levels of priorities.


:)

That may indeed be the case, but Kirk would do the right thing and fall on his own sword if he had to regardless of what some sheet of paper (?) says.

This 24th Century Prime Directive is, indeed, exceedingly inhumane. But the only way to present it differently is to pretend a number of episodes/movie doesn't exist.

You say that like that's a bad thing . . . .

I'm perfectly comfortable with ignoring "Homeward." :)

One of the most stupid parts of "Homeward" was when the young man discovers that he's on a starship and not his own world anymore. He eventually commits suicide, and the episode treats it like a tragedy... except Picard was going to let him die anyway if not for Worf's brother. :brickwall:

In the 24th century you weren't even allowed to interfere with a Warp-Capable planet's internal affairs. However I reckon if a non-Federation Warp-capable planet had something the Federation needed (like a weapon for defeating the Dominion or eternal life (INS)) the Federation would jump right in and ignore the PD if something was in it for them.

Yup, realpolitik at work. Like Sisko said, it's easy to be a saint in paradise. Once shit hits the fan, though, look out.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

One problem I have with the PD is that it completely ignores the fact that the Federation isn't the only warp-capable civilization out there. Imagine that one of these pre-warp civilizations that a Starfleet ship visits and leaves alone is later visited by a Klingon or Ferengi ship, what then? The Klingons would gladly add them to their empire one way or another, and the Ferengi would certainly try to strike a business deal. Either way, the cat's out of the bag, and the Federation no longer has the chance to "properly" introduce that civilization to the galactic community.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

Kirk may be willing to fall on his own sword but when it comes to his SHIP...

see: The Apple and A Taste of Armageddon....yes...yes..we've been over the PD in these eps a billion times. Let's not rehash that.* Even if we accept Kirk's pinhead dancing in Apple, ATOA is the most blatant interference ever seen. He didn't just free his crew, he upset the entire way two civilizations are run. He's literally gambling with the lives of millions of people.

Can you imagine how NuTrek with its love of breaking tropes would treat that?

"You did what?? We're trying to establish diplomatic relations with these people (in fact given the circumstances of the episode, its VITAL for some reason) and you've quite possibly doomed them all to atomic death!!"


And before we start saying the PD doesn't apply in ATOA...the PD is not just for pre-warp societies as seen in more than one ST episode.

*Obviously I rehashed it. Sorry. I really have no problem with Kirk doing anything to save his crew. It makes him human. I just think he went way too far in ATOA.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

As for the PD in general and "Homeward" specifically.

1) I HATEEEEE how almost every damn time the worst possible thing happens when the PD is violated. Come on. If someone provided irrefutable proof that a flying saucer crashed at Roswell...our lives wouldn't change a damn bit. Maybe a teeny bit, but we'd all go to work the next day and say "Hunh. Well time to make the donuts*

2) My biggest problem with "Homeward" is how GD PUTOUT everyone acts. "You mean we have to SAVE these people now?? uhhhhhhh...can't we just beam them into space?"

*Ok, yes if we've been retroteching a flying saucer since 1947, then there has been contamination.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

see: The Apple and A Taste of Armageddon....yes...yes..we've been over the PD in these eps a billion times. Let's not rehash that.* Even if we accept Kirk's pinhead dancing in Apple, ATOA is the most blatant interference ever seen. He didn't just free his crew, he upset the entire way two civilizations are run. He's literally gambling with the lives of millions of people.

So how exactly was Kirk suppose to handle a situation he was forced into by Ambassador Fox and Anan-7? Order 430+ people into suicide chambers?

Kirk was just part of the problem for the Eminians as reports had that they were short "several thousand". Kirk may have accelerated the issue but it sounds as if the five-hundred year war was starting to wear on the Eminian population.

Eminiar and Vendikarr could've proactively solved the issue any time they wanted be exempting non-native spacecraft that came into their system instead of just executing the crews. But they didn't and that opened up their little game to intervention from the outside. They're just lucky the Klingons didn't stumble upon the situation first.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

see: The Apple and A Taste of Armageddon....yes...yes..we've been over the PD in these eps a billion times. Let's not rehash that.* Even if we accept Kirk's pinhead dancing in Apple, ATOA is the most blatant interference ever seen. He didn't just free his crew, he upset the entire way two civilizations are run. He's literally gambling with the lives of millions of people.

So how exactly was Kirk suppose to handle a situation he was forced into by Ambassador Fox and Anan-7? Order 430+ people into suicide chambers?

Uhm. "Let my crew and the ambassador go or I blow up your computer"

Heh. I just had a thought. As soon as Kirk leaves we learn that the entire story was a gambit by Anan-7 (or Ambassador Fox) to end the war.
 
Re: Do you think the Feds save endangered planets with no sentient ra

My take is that (especially during TOS) the prime directive was in a state of flux and subject to change, it's possible that the prime directive as general order was relatively new, not well thought out and had to be amended several times.

This might explain some of Kirk's actions, he wasn't breaking the PD, it's just that every week or so he was receiving the latest updates and revisions.

If the prime directive originated with the federation council and not internally with Starfleet, then as various council members come and go the PD get reinterpreted, rewritten and it various sections assigned different levels of priorities.

That may indeed be the case, but Kirk would do the right thing and fall on his own sword if he had to regardless of what some sheet of paper (?) says.
Kirk was already hostile to "paper pushers", he would have gone nuts to always receiving their brand new interpretations or versions of PD each weeks.

Anyway, it can't be a Prime Directive if it's so volatile. It's like a constitutional text. It's not serious if it's modified or reinterpreted oftenly in a short term period. It also needs to be a pretty simple and clear document to stay understandable and usable by Star Fleet officers. It's more something learned soon at Academy and not a brand new fashion.
 
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