Do you believe at some point, everyone in the Milky Way joined the Federation?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by The Rock, Aug 11, 2021.

  1. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    I can't factually vouch for the Medusan behaving exactly like a funny-looking human there, but were I a betting man, I'd probably bet my entire fortune on that (but whether I'd then retire in splendor depends on you accepting the bet, of course).

    Odds simply are that even holo-Janeway is going to be more alien than the Medusan. Say, she'll be the one actually living in a box!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Henoch Off The Shelf
    In about a thousand years (or maybe less), the Kelva refugees will be showing up from the Andromeda Galaxy...they conquered the entire Andromeda Galaxy. They have space ships with much higher speeds than with warp drives. Will they join or conquer?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
  3. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
  4. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Their Milky Way counterparts, the ones that look humans, will have prepared the federation for their arrival. Plus the barrier destroyed the Kelvan ship for all its power so maybe it will do the same to the other ones. Without ships, they won't pose much of a threat.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    That a castaway quartet of them almost defeated Kirk while suffering from the extreme hangover of being squeezed into alien bodies doesn't bode well for the Milky Way...

    Also, Rojan's bunch doesn't appear to have helped the Federation any. For all we know, they did their bit for their king and country and cleverly taught the Federation how to build warp engines that always generate accidental wormholes, and consoles that always explode.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Smirky-Spock likes this.
  6. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    If only we had the Caretaker technology we could travel from one end of the galaxy to the other in no time.
     
    Dr. Kravaal likes this.
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    ...But apparently not back. Or is there any reason to believe the Caretaker when he mumbles something about having sent some of his victims back? We never hear of any such survivors.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. MAGolding

    MAGolding Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    Please quote the text that says the Kelvins conquered the entire Andromeda Galaxy.
     
  9. TIM Thomason

    TIM Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Location:
    Secret Vault
    It's supposition based on the fact that they intended to conquer the entire Milky Way Galaxy (somehow). Not everything is entirely literal.
     
  10. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Yeah, Kelvan ships didn't stand much of a chance against the Milky Way great barrier... meanwhile UFP found a way to get through it.
    Also, 'much faster speeds than warp' may be an overstatement considering the fact the Enterprise-D maximum warp was rated at the same speed (and that ship is only from about 100 years later).
    UFP also has access to Quantum slipstream v2 which can achieve speeds of 10 000 Ly's per minute. They also have access to Coaxial Warp... possibly Transwarp, and a host of other faster than Warp technologies they could use (possibly even far more enhanced Warp drive too)... not to mention the Spore Drive now too.
    That is if the writers are done keeping things unchanged and finally changing things properly.

    If the Kelvans conquered the entire Andromeda galaxy (which is debatable/questionable), hadn't died out due to the radiation buildup in that galaxy and hadn't changed their ways, upon arriving in the Milky Way, they might opt to try and conquer it rather than try to integrate peacefully.
    Also, we have no sure way of knowing the Kelvans would opt to go to the Milky Way en mass. There are other galaxies they may have decided to go to (and settle or conquer) instead (the Milky Way is surrounded by a lot of smaller dwarf galaxies which the UFP might have colonized or explored in the centuries leading up to the Temporal wars - we just don't know).

    Plus, no reason to think the Kelvans would necessarily pose much of a threat to the UFP and Milky way at large. UFP had the benefit of diversifying its technological base from hundreds of different species over the centuries... the Kelvans may have conquered once, took what interested them and then didn't bother with the rest. The UFP would continue with diversified technological development from hundreds of different species.
     
  11. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Intent doesn't mean they went through with that.
    Its possible they tried, but UFP stopped them in the centuries leading to the Temporal Wars... or the UFP turned out to be too powerful for them to bother, so they couldn't really do anything even if they tried.

    From what I gathered, the Kelvans may have been more technologically advanced than UFP in the 23rd century, but this really wouldn't be the case in the 24th or the 25th.
    Even if we assume exponential developments in science and technology for 1 species, the UFP was comprised of over 150 alien species cooperating and sharing resources, knowledge and technology and would continue to do so in the proceeding centuries.

    My thinking is that UFP would have achieved technological parity with the Kelvans in the late 24th century (at least when it comes to Warp speed, weapons and defensive technology - in many other areas, UFP would likely already be more advanced than the Kelvans thanks to the fact they found a way to breach the great barrier and repair damage on a massive scale a century later), and surpassed them by the mid 25th century to the point where the Kelvans wouldn't really be much of a threat. (but also, Trek writers aren't too good with bringing these points to the table).

    At any rate, Trek writers aren't too good with follow-up potential threats or issues. Its more like it was a one time thing for the sake of that episode, and then it was forgotten.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  12. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    The biggest issue for a galaxy-spanning Federation would be whether they can devise a transportation method that makes the transport of people and goods from one end of the galaxy to the other in a short period of time attainable.
    If it takes years, let alone decades to get from one end of the "nation" to the other, then it is likely to fracture. That was one of the reason for the splitting of the Roman Empire.
    Even the "Galactic" Republic in Star Wars, which had access to much faster FTL travel through the hyper lane network didn't encompass the whole star Wars galaxy, and their de-facto sphere of control was even smaller than their de-jure one.

    Interestingly, if you look at the Federation and the other Alpha/Beta quadrant powers at the end of DS9, let alone after the Hobus Nebula, the Federation is, theoretically, in a good position to incorporate the other local empires into itself. The Romulans and Cardassians are a shamble, the Klingons are on their way to self-destruction and the Ferengi, under Grand-Nagus Rom, are developing into something that is much more in-line with Federation philosophy, which would allow an eventual merger of the two polities.
    So the Federation could definitely grow to encompass the "local" part of the Galaxy where the bulk of the shows take place.

    The Borg are really the one scifi alien where you can actually say that they aren't a culture, they are a virus. And their "best interest" which include mind-raping and mutilating billions of innocents can and should be discarded.
    Seriously, I really don't get people who act like the Borg are anything but monstrous, or who pretend they have any redeeming qualities.
    It doesn't matter whether they "think" what they do is good, they are still mind raping and mutilating billions of innocents.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  13. Tim Walker

    Tim Walker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    In a YouTube video ("Interstellar Empires") Isaac Arthur commented that, historically, it has been very difficult for centralized empires to remain coherent if routine communications/travel takes more than one year from one edge to the far edge. Two years for a round trip between the out posts most remote from each other.

    BTW, travel on the Silk Road between Ancient Rome and Ancient China was a two year round trip. That hints at how far trade might range beyond Federation borders.

    The Trek universe seems to be one where FTL signals travel much faster than FTL starships. Could longer travel times-longer than one year-work if communications are much faster? It occurred to me that hibernation aboard ship might mitigate these longer travel times.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  14. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Reginald Barcly & his PathFinder team used Hyper-Subspace Radio to communicate with Voyager.

    I've calculated how fast his Hyper-Subspace Radio waves would need to be to maintain real time communication with Voyager in the Delta Quadrant with the evidence of info I had.

    In 1 second, the Hyper-SubSpace radio signal needs to travel 1,000,225.38428672 ly linearly to maintain Real Time Communication with Voyager.

    The main issue with long distance signal transmission, even with focus & directed Radio Wave emissions.

    Imagine how difficult it is to send basic WiFi signals 3 miles across a lake.
    Now imagine a few orders of magnitude difficulty in doing that across several ly's of space, finding where a StarShip is in the middle of a sea of stars.

    If you're off by a fraction of a degree, you completely miss sending the Hyper-Subspace Radio signal to your target.

    So the major issue isn't the signal propagation in most cases, it's the aiming + stellar phenomea that might be in the way of your signal.

    Just aiming correctly could be a incredibly frustrating task since:
    - Space is naturally moving / expanding
    - We're naturally rotating around SMBH (Super Massive Black Hole)
    - Random Steller Phenomena might be in the way
    - If you're in a Star System, you might be orbiting / rotating around a Star or Planetoid.

    So many moving objects and calculations that you need to factor in, and then fiddle with, to get your radio signal aim to be correct my tiny fractions of a degree.

    As fars as Transwarp Physical Travel, in my head canon for the 26th century, there are solutions to cross Galactic travel, but I've put natural limitations so that all forms of TransWarp capable FTL drives to have more believable/realistic limitations and this way we don't create a situation where one "Ultimate FTL" drive will rule them all.

    Yes, you'll be able to cross the Milkyway in a span of "Many Days" or "Hours" instead of a year, but everything has a balance and resource cost. A few rare cases, things can be "Near instantaneous" depending on what drive you use and what resources you have access to.

    An example with Quantum Slip-Stream Drive.
    There are natural limitations to how long you can stay inside Quantum Slip-Stream since being inside QSS naturally does damage / drains the SIF (Structural Integrity Field) slowly over time.

    By my 26the century, the amount of time you can stay in QSS has grown by a few orders of magnitude compared to Voyager's initial launch, but there are still hard time limits before you have to pump more energy from reserves, or pop out into normal space and recharge or fix your SIF Energy Capacitors depending on the situation.

    So low end QSS @ Wf 60 ~= 172,479 ly in 74.5 days
    And Hi end QSS @ Wf 180 ~= 34,934 ly in 9.3 hrs
    Limited use QSS @ Wf 825 ~= 2,799,610 ly in 4.66 hrs <- Requires Synthetic Benemite Crystals that take many years to naturally grow and is a consumable.

    Most StarFleet Captains have between 1-15 of these crystals saved up for emergency use when they need to cross vast distances of space in short order or they suffer the "Janeway or Traveller effects" where they get chucked super far away from home and want to return home.

    Usually these SBC (Synthetic Benemite Crystals) naturally decay over time and use, but I've found a way to halt their decay until you need to use them.

    I placed each SBC in a small container that maintains a small Temporal Stasis Field that naturally halts the decay, if a Captain wants to use it, they will shove the container into a specialized receptacle that will turn off the Temporal Stasis Field and allows usage of the SBC to attain the fastest mode of QSS travel.

    So in 99.9% of the time, most StarFleet Captains won't use the SBC, they'll use the slower form of QSS since the SBC is their "Ace Card" to get back home or to make a emergency trip to a destination in super short order.

    Same with usage of Spore Drive, you need to grow the Spores and seperate them in containers, find a volunteer who will willingly be Genetically altered to become a Navigator (Genetic Engineering Ban has been lifted and reversed).

    There are regulations as to what you can genetically modify though in BiPaB's:
    e.g. Narcissim, Sociopathy, Greed ,& Agression are certain traits that aren't allowed to be increased.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  15. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Henoch Off The Shelf
    You're right. That's what going from memory does...corrected my post. Thanks.
     
  16. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Well, if travel to another star system was possible then we have to assume that either we are the only ones or that we are the very first ones to get to that point (otherwise we would have already been contacted, nay conquered) which is better than winning the lottery given that it's taken three to four billion years for life to evolve to this point. So which is more likely? That we are the only ones to get to that level of technology or maybe even to develop sapient life? Or that we are the first ones, in a galaxy of more than four hundred billion stars? The only other possibility is that space travel from stars to stars is just not practical (it takes too much time and consumes too much energy).
     
  17. Smirky-Spock

    Smirky-Spock Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Henoch Off The Shelf
    <Cough>. Greek gods. (TOS, Who Mourns For Adonais?) Being worshipped as gods is technically conquering part of the Earth. Good thing it didn't last. :)
     
  18. oldtrekkie

    oldtrekkie Captain Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Which makes me wonder why they ever left. It took 24th-century weapons to neutralize Appollo. Even with our current weapons, we wouldn't stand a chance, we'd be at their mercy.
     
  19. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    In fighting between Apollo and other Greek gods?
     
  20. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    You mean in real life?
    No, not at all. The galaxy is so vast that even if there are other civilizations the chance that two or more of them are close enough to each other for communication, let alone conquest is very slim.
    Plus the ready availability of any resource a civilization might want via the astronomical number of uninhabited planets and asteroids in the vastness of space (where they'd be easier to mine, too) makes conquering other species due to competition for resources pointless.
    And aliens having no immune system to cope with the microbes and parasites of other I habitation might also make competition for living space (and colonisation) impractical or downright pointless.
    And again such a competition would only be likely to happen if several spacefaring civilization spawned basically on top of each other(by galactic standards)

    Plus there's the possibility of spacefaring civilizations from millions of years ago that have since disappeared.