As noted, modern military does it all the time.
Do we know why Pike and co are in the different uniforms?
- Thread starter Infern0
- Start date
The 22nd century flag officers seen in ENT had both braids on their sleeves and rank squares pinned just below their shoulders. Trek has used two different types of insignia to denote the same rank and at the exact same time more than once. Another example is Admiral Kirk's uniform during the first act of TMP. He has a Rear Admiral's braids on his sleeves and a starburst or some similar insignia embossed on his shoulder epaulets.
So there is a precedent in Star Trek. It's not that commonly seen, but it has existed.
For whatever it's worth, the Into Darkness dress uniforms had braids on the sleeves and ENT/TNG/etc/DSC style ranks on the epaulets. Kirk had the two-thick-one-thin TOS captain's braid and four pips.
If we're talking rank stripes, TOS wasn't even consistent with its own self:
- "The Cage": One stripe for officers (ANY officer), no stripe for anyone else.
- WNMHGB: Two stripes for captain; one stripe for all other officers; etc.
And then there's the TOS system.
So you can't blame other shows for not following TOS' rules, when it didn't follow its OWN.
- "The Cage": One stripe for officers (ANY officer), no stripe for anyone else.
- WNMHGB: Two stripes for captain; one stripe for all other officers; etc.
And then there's the TOS system.
So you can't blame other shows for not following TOS' rules, when it didn't follow its OWN.
I always like the captain's braid on the TOS uniforms: the braid pattern, and the fact that the middle strip was broken.
They tried to bring the system back to the JJ movies, but they screwed it all up. They made the stripes silver, straight, untextured, and solid. Kirk doesn't look like a captain anymore, not in the TOS style- now he just looks like a lieutenant commander.
They tried to bring the system back to the JJ movies, but they screwed it all up. They made the stripes silver, straight, untextured, and solid. Kirk doesn't look like a captain anymore, not in the TOS style- now he just looks like a lieutenant commander.
It's still three stripes. How could it be be mistaken for a Lt. Commander's two stripes?I always like the captain's braid on the TOS uniforms: the braid pattern, and the fact that the middle strip was broken.
They tried to bring the system back to the JJ movies, but they screwed it all up. They made the stripes silver, straight, untextured, and solid. Kirk doesn't look like a captain anymore, not in the TOS style- now he just looks like a lieutenant commander.
Early installment weirdness?
Sorry, I meant like a LCDR in a contemporary Navy, not Trek. My point being is that the JJ-verse solid stripes don't look like the braid used to, plus the 'half-stripes' are just skinny stripes instead of broken ones.
Also, two solid stripes isn't LCDR in Trek- that's a full commander. If you look at Scotty's sleeves in TOS, you'll see one solid stripe and one broken stripe, or the JJ-equivalent of one and a half stripes. That's a LCDR. In TOS, Spock wore full commander stripes as 'executive science officer', but I think I might recall a place or two where his service rank was listed as LCDR, while at other times he is called 'Commander Spock.' Of course, referring to a LCDR as just 'commander' is a common practice in most western navies, and just adds to the fun confusion!!
Classic example: TOP GUN, when Viper is delivering his ass chewing in the offce: "You followed Commander Heatherly down after he lost sight of you and called 'no joy'..." As seen numerous times on his uniform in the movie, Jester was clearly an O-4 (LCDR).
Anyway.
Three stripes in the US Navy isn't a Captain either. Starfleet ranks are Starfleet ranks. Why look at them and see "US Navy"?
I'm aware of what the ranks look like.
I'm getting too far down in the weeds on this- let me backtrack.
My point, opinion, whatever: I like the old TOS gold braid and broken stripes. I do not like the JJ-verse silver, unbroken stripes that they used in the reboot movies. That was really all I was trying to say.
Heh. You know it's a slow Saturday morning when I spend more than one post commenting on effing Star Trek sleeve stripes.
(Really I'm just procrastinating mowing the lawn...)
My point, opinion, whatever: I like the old TOS gold braid and broken stripes. I do not like the JJ-verse silver, unbroken stripes that they used in the reboot movies. That was really all I was trying to say.
Heh. You know it's a slow Saturday morning when I spend more than one post commenting on effing Star Trek sleeve stripes.
(Really I'm just procrastinating mowing the lawn...)Including the oddity that breaks easy equalivancy between the two (ENS-CMDR omits one full stripe from the naval model, whereas CAPT omits one full stripe and a half stripe). Which IMO is why Fleet Captain (or similar) should be a rank - by the 24th Century most held by senior captains like Picard and DeSoto (and potentially high profile but less senior captains like Sisko (Dominion War era), but not semi-rookie Captains like Janeway, Ezri Dax, Vale, Calhoun or Chakotay.
The TOS cuff rank markings (the series, not the two pilots) were intended to evoke the general idea of naval-type sleeve rank lace but were also deliberately designed (a) to be *different* to any known contemporary rank system and (b) to "de-militarise" the system and to reduce the amount of rank lace worn by any given grade; hence the use of the half-stripe in the centre of the captain insignia, instead of jumping to three full stripes.
The use of the wavy lace and the broken "half" stripes was a clever way of doing this and was part of what gave the TOS uniforms their unique aesthetic -- so much so that it was carried forward (with some subtle changes) into the next set of uniforms in TMP.
It's worth noting that in the earlier history of Naval services such as the USN and the British Royal Navy the pattern of sleeve cuff lace as rank insignia evolved significantly from, say, 1800 to around 1900, with both broadly stabilising in their current form in the early decades of the 20th century. Initially, some junior grades had no insignia and as these ranks were re-aligned and gold sleeve lace was authorised for them, so the more senior grades all gained additional stripes to stay ahead of them. I guess you could argue that this was (more-or-less) what happened in Trek with the leap to the TNG-pattern collar pips but then first Enterprise and now Discovery have messed with that entirely...!
The JJ-verse uniforms got better with Beyond but the thin, straight silver lace was decidedly underwhelming and does look too much like contemporary naval insignia in precisely the sort of way that the TOS uniforms managed to avoid.
The DSC designers missed a trick by not using the TOS-pattern insignia with the wavy stripes and broken half-stripes. It would also have helped to differentiate the DSC uniforms from those in the JJ-verse.
The use of the wavy lace and the broken "half" stripes was a clever way of doing this and was part of what gave the TOS uniforms their unique aesthetic -- so much so that it was carried forward (with some subtle changes) into the next set of uniforms in TMP.
It's worth noting that in the earlier history of Naval services such as the USN and the British Royal Navy the pattern of sleeve cuff lace as rank insignia evolved significantly from, say, 1800 to around 1900, with both broadly stabilising in their current form in the early decades of the 20th century. Initially, some junior grades had no insignia and as these ranks were re-aligned and gold sleeve lace was authorised for them, so the more senior grades all gained additional stripes to stay ahead of them. I guess you could argue that this was (more-or-less) what happened in Trek with the leap to the TNG-pattern collar pips but then first Enterprise and now Discovery have messed with that entirely...!
The JJ-verse uniforms got better with Beyond but the thin, straight silver lace was decidedly underwhelming and does look too much like contemporary naval insignia in precisely the sort of way that the TOS uniforms managed to avoid.
The DSC designers missed a trick by not using the TOS-pattern insignia with the wavy stripes and broken half-stripes. It would also have helped to differentiate the DSC uniforms from those in the JJ-verse.
As I recall, the TOS pilots used solid stripes in different thicknesses instead of the braids and broken half ones. So, DSC using them is historically accurate. The DSC TOS uniforms might not be as much, given that their sandwiched between the same turtlenecks used in those TOS pilots, but I guess we could say that the Constitution-class officers uniform went from the turtlenecks to the DSC ones and then back to the turtlenecks (which might've come with changes to the rank stripes). Maybe not the most elegant solution, but it's no worse then the frequent Starfleet uniform changes we've seen over the years.
I don't recall that the pilots actually did that. I recall only one thickness of solid stripe. Nor was the rank depiction in either pilot really in alignment with the system in the series. Production-wise, it was still a work in progress.
However, varying the thickness to create a system parallel to the final TOS series braids, where the thick stripe represents the solid braid and the thin stripe represents the broken braid, is a natural retcon.
I wish discovery had gone for a more visible ranking system, whether it be pips or braids or stripes. Having to squint to see the ranks on the badges is annoying, because i need glasses and it makes me feel old.
Sort of.
"fleet captain" in RW tradition is essentially the post of "Executive Officer" to an Admiral in command of a fleet or task force (some admirals, esp senior ones, will also have a separate "flag captain" which is short for "flagship captain". Alternatively one officer will hold both positions)
There is also the largely universal title or post of Commodore (A non-flag officer commanding a Task Force/Squadron), as opposed to the common flag rank of Commodore, which is the protocol equivalent of a US one-star flag/general officer.
The idea that "fleet captains" are experienced senior officers who may command multiple ships as needed (Commodore by post) whereas "commodore" is used for officers who are assigned command of multiple ships permentantly (Commodore by rank) seems plausible (cf Captain Picard in Redemption and Star Trek: First Contact v. Commodore Wesley in The Ultimate Computer). Also, it seems reasonable to acknowledge the experience and longevity (and greater responsibilities) of officers like Picard compared to for instance Janeway (who was born around the time that Picard first commanded a starship).
From EAS:
According to Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Roddenberry’s original idea for the organization of the USS Enterprise was that the ship would be based on a merchant marine type organization with a Captain and various mates overseeing a large crew. In the pilot episode "The Cage", the only ranks spoken of were Captain, Lieutenant, Chief and Crewman. All officers wore a single rank stripe and, according to Roddenberry, everyone aboard the Enterprise was a qualified astronaut making rank titles a formality since all crewmembers basically had the same type of training.
I suspect this is where ST'09's treatment of ranks as positions comes from. The 2013 videogame even has McCoy say to Kirk "I took all the same [academy] classes you did... hell, I even graduated"
