Do we hate Harry Potter and Twilight?

[Blamo]

I don't believe that. I do find male characters more interesting than female characters on average, but that's simply because the vast majority of female characters, in genre shows at least, are terribly written. When a well written female character comes along I enjoy that character as much as I do any male. The extreme popularity of Buffy on this website should convince you of that.

In fact Buffy was probably the first show where I actually had emotional investment in the main character. The only other Sci-Fi/Fantasy show at that time to manage that was Babylon 5. The gender of the central character had little to do with it.

Voyager - In the case of this series, I just couldn't stand Janeway. This had nothing to do with her gender and all to do with the fact she annoyed the hell out of me. Lord knows how much I wish Seven became the main charcter, atleast she was interesting. Then came Enterprise, with an equally annoying Captain.

Xena - Strong main female character, better show then Hercules.

Irene Adler novels - The central character was "The Woman" from Sherlock Holmes, a character who . Though I did find myself getting irritated every single time half a page was taken up describing what Irene was wearing, though that has more to do with the writing then the character herself.

I'll admit I can't really come up with more, but that's mostly to do with a lack of shows where there are impressive main female characters.

In the case of women Doctor Who seems to be very popular with them... Though that could be because of them having the hots for the central character. It won't be their only reason for watching it, but it'll probably play a part.

The only time I have trouble with female main characters is in RPG's where the character is a blank slate meant as a sort of avatar (as opposed to RPG's where your more in an advisory role and the character largely makes their own decisions). This however is a different form of involvement where you are very actively interacting with the story.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Fair enough - want to hear my list of stories I love with male protagonists and mostly male characters?

You strongly identify with the male protagonists and/or (a) male character in all of those? I don't think I could come up with a list that long.

Well, in many of them I have no choice but to strongly identify with the male characters because the female characters are nonexistent or wildly underwritten. Am I going to identify with Uhura for the bulk of TOS? She's barely in any of the stories. (I identified with her anyway - when I could.) Where's a female in Huckleberry Finn?

Now, honestly - can you guys say the same in reverse?

I can't, anyway.

But that need not prove much, since the general idea is that Star Wars is not as exclusively male as Twilight is exclusively female, and the extent of the divide existing here doesn't seem to object to that a lot, however valid (and true) the point is.

I wasn't really trying to prove with the list that Star Wars is as much aimed at boys as Twilight is aimed at girls (though I think this is true). And thanks for being honest without being defensive.

Twilight is an extreme of that which tilts way off into soap opera (not that guys don't like a bit of male melodrama, look how everyone freaked out over Heat).

Or more recently The Dark Knight. But didn't Heat garner critical acclaim and non-male fans, or is that just my addled subconscious?

Again, I don't know too many women who thought Heat was worth much. Nor The Dark Knight for that matter, unless they were already comic genre fans, where, as I'm sure you know, female fans are outnumbered by male fans probably 8, 9 or 10 to 1. As for critical acclaim, I could argue a pretty strong bias in literary criticism against stories with female concerns, which are often labeled melodrama and forgotten. Heat is a good example - it was nothing but melodrama, and yet did garner critical acclaim. If anyone can tell me how it was deserving of critical acclaim and was not melodrama, I'd be grateful.

^I honestly don't care whether the lead character in a film, tv series or book is male or female, black, white, asian, gay or straight. To me what matters is the quality. The reason it's easier to have a long list of favourites with male protagonists in is that there are simply more stories/shows/movies with male protagonists. Because execs have the same attitude as you do,

I'm sorry - what attitude are you assigning to me? And what does it have to do with there being more stories/ show/movies with male protagonists? Because if you actually do a full on survey of tv and books (possibly not movies) you'll find that there are as many or more stories with female protagonists out there as there are stories with male protagonists. Check out your average fantasy shelf at a bookstore - probably 60% female protagonists.

 

[Ryan]

I'm no fan of either franchise but it's pretty damn disingenuous to complain about books aimed at the youth market when adults have made the tripe Dan Brown pumps out a bestseller multiple times over.

 

[Trekker4747]

I'm no fan of either franchise but it's pretty damn disingenuous to complain about books aimed at the youth market when adults have made the tripe Dan Brown pumps out a bestseller multiple times over.

Twilight is about a teenage girl pining over a man who's effectively orders of magnitude older than her and treats her like shit and, oh, then he rips her uterus open with his own teeth to extract her demon-spawn baby that broke her back.

This is aimed towards teenage girls as "touching" and "romantic."

I wonder how "romantic" it really would be for a 100 year old man to lust after a 17 year-old girl?

 

[Ryan]

I'm no fan of either franchise but it's pretty damn disingenuous to complain about books aimed at the youth market when adults have made the tripe Dan Brown pumps out a bestseller multiple times over.

Twilight is about a teenage girl pining over a man who's effectively orders of magnitude older than her and treats her like shit and, oh, then he rips her uterus open with his own teeth to extract her demon-spawn baby that broke her back.

This is aimed towards teenage girls as "touching" and "romantic."

I wonder how "romantic" it really would be for a 100 year old man to lust after a 17 year-old girl?

You know, as someone who heard the spurious argument that violent video games would turn me into a murderous vandal it would be hypocritical for me to turn around and use it on someone else. Sometimes a stupid story is just a stupid story.

And if having bad taste when you're 14-years old was a crime everyone would be in jail.

 

[Trekker4747]

I'm no fan of either franchise but it's pretty damn disingenuous to complain about books aimed at the youth market when adults have made the tripe Dan Brown pumps out a bestseller multiple times over.

Twilight is about a teenage girl pining over a man who's effectively orders of magnitude older than her and treats her like shit and, oh, then he rips her uterus open with his own teeth to extract her demon-spawn baby that broke her back.

This is aimed towards teenage girls as "touching" and "romantic."

I wonder how "romantic" it really would be for a 100 year old man to lust after a 17 year-old girl?

You know, as someone who heard the spurious argument that violent video games would turn me into a murderous vandal it would be hypocritical for me to turn around and use it on someone else. Sometimes a stupid story is just a stupid story.

And if having bad taste when you're 14-years old was a crime most everyone would be guilty.

The problem is many adult women are buying into the "romance" of this thing -which is creepier since they're crushing on barely-legal boys.

But it's also a bit hypocritical of "society" (not necessairly these specific mothers/families) considering how much flack Harry Potter has taken for various reasons up-to and including things like Satanism or anti-Christian sentiment but here we have novels where a teenage girl falls in love with an undead monster and eventually becomes one herself.

Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I don't "hate" Potter, but I don't care for it. All the hype, the huge fanbase, John Williams scoring it ... watched the first one ... left wonder what the big fucking deal was. Even without the hype, this was no more special then a well-written TV movie.

Twilight ... is a fucking joke. End of story.


"Stargate: SG1" was a good show early on. About season six, much like "The X-Files", it started falling apart. But unlike the X-Files, it was still okay on it's own terms. But like "The X-Files" it became too convoluted in it's own mythology and bad guys.

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't "hate" Potter, but I don't care for it. All the hype, the huge fanbase, John Williams scoring it ... watched the first one ... left wonder what the big fucking deal was. Even without the hype, this was no more special then a well-written TV movie.

Even as a fan of the movies, I have to admit the first two aren't very good.

 

[Thrall]

Here's another thing I hate about Harry Potter: I hate their names. They all sound like something you'd find on Sesame Street or what crazy people name their cats. Which, actually, would have made it more readable to me if all the characters were cats because then those stupid names would have made sense. "Oh Mr. Dumbelldore is mighty cranky today because he hasn't had his milk yet!".

 

[Trent Roman]

What bugged me most about the Potter names wasn't so much the silliness as the whack-you-over-the-head-with-a-2x4 obviousness of it. Malfoy. Fleur Delacour. Remus Lupin, for fuck's sake. Give the readers a little credit and don't telegraph your plot points and archetypes in big, flashing neon signs.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[MarianLH]

SNAPE: I want two rolls of parchment on WEREWOLVES by tomorrow, including what WEREWOLVES look like, how to detect WEREWOLVES in the faculty of a British boarding school for wizards, and the definition of the Latin word “lupus.” CLASS DISMISSED!

--From Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban in Fifteen Minutes


Marian

 

[Hermiod]

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist? Name me a few great movies, tv shows and films loved by you and/ or other guys where most of the characters are females, or even just the main character(s) are female.

I guess I'll be the first one to admit it. Having a female lead character puts me off watching a show. It didn't used to be that way. You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me when Voyager or Buffy were on. I'd even quite happily sit and watch an episode of Murder She Wrote.

I now look back at those shows and I can see B'Elanna's abusive, violent behaviour towards her husband. I can see seven great years of Buffy being ruined by the "men holding women back" message of its final episodes. I can see the Male Cop of the Week being potrayed as incompetent by the amateur sleuth.

And more modern shows are even worse. Hollywood's idea of a strong woman is someone who belittles men and beats them up even when they're twice her size. The only show I watch with a female lead is Dollhouse and I, like most of the show's audience, watch that despite her. (Just as an aside - how come whenever the Dollhouse needs someone with hand to hand combat skills they never send Victor ?)

It's like these characters generate some sort of stupidification field around themselves that causes all men to act like total idiots and lose all of their physical strength whenever they are around. Oh, and also their ability to press assault charges when Dr. Brennan punches them in the face.

These characters aren't interesting because they're invariably perfect Mary Sues who fail at nothing. Interesting characters screw up sometimes. Interesting characters have weaknesses and character flaws.

Let's put it this way, if Gregory House - probably the most interesting character on TV - was a woman she wouldn't need the cane or the pain medication, she'd be nice to everyone, everyone would love her and the now male Dr. Cuddy would be the evil sexist asshole boss who interferes in all her cases despite being wrong every week.

Hollywood doesn't know how to write interesting female characters and until it does, I won't be watching.

 

[RoJoHen]

I actually prefer strong female characters over male characters.

The chicks from Buffy and Angel are definitely up there...
Aeryn Sun from Farscape...
For the most part, I love watching Doctor Who's female companions more than I enjoy the Doctor himself...
Elizabeth Weir from SG: Atlantis...
Hell, I used to watch Ally McBeal religiously...
And more old school, Clarissa Explains It All.

I mean, Angel killed off most of its female characters by Season 5, and I still mostly love it for Fred and the one episode where Cordelia comes back! Even with shows with mostly male casts, I prefer the episodes that focus on the females.

 

[Hermiod]

Ally McBeal religiously...

The four foot tall size queen ? Really not winning me over there.

I mean, Angel killed off most of its female characters by Season 5, and I still mostly love it for Fred and the one episode where Cordelia comes back! Even with shows with mostly male casts, I prefer the episodes that focus on the females.

Angel only had, at most, two female regulars prior to season five anyway and they had only killed Cordelia off at that point. So, I guess one out of two is "almost all".

 

[RoJoHen]

Ally McBeal religiously...

The four foot tall size queen ? Really not winning me over there.

Wasn't really trying to.

I mean, Angel killed off most of its female characters by Season 5, and I still mostly love it for Fred and the one episode where Cordelia comes back! Even with shows with mostly male casts, I prefer the episodes that focus on the females.

Angel only had, at most, two female regulars prior to season five anyway and they had only killed Cordelia off at that point. So, I guess one out of two is "almost all".

Well, sure. But that's not even the point. I watched Angel mostly for the female characters. I hated the show for most of Season 5 simply because Cordelia was no longer around.

 

[Hermiod]

Wasn't really trying to.

I'm sure you weren't, but Ally McBeal is a good example of the kind of female character that puts me off watching the show. She was a horrible person while her male castmates were portrayed as a bunch of perverts.

Well, sure. But that's not even the point. I watched Angel mostly for the female characters. I hated the show for most of Season 5 simply because Cordelia was no longer around.

While I won't disagree that the show missed Cordy, I believe her departure was unavoidable.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well, sure. But that's not even the point. I watched Angel mostly for the female characters. I hated the show for most of Season 5 simply because Cordelia was no longer around.

While I won't disagree that the show missed Cordy, I believe her departure was unavoidable.

Again, not the point.

 

[Ryan]

The problem is many adult women are buying into the "romance" of this thing -which is creepier since they're crushing on barely-legal boys.

But it's also a bit hypocritical of "society" (not necessairly these specific mothers/families) considering how much flack Harry Potter has taken for various reasons up-to and including things like Satanism or anti-Christian sentiment but here we have novels where a teenage girl falls in love with an undead monster and eventually becomes one herself.

Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

You're just looking for excuses because you don't like the series. In the dopey world of harlequin romance there's absolutely nothing unique about Twilight; if you think Meyers writes dysfunctional relationships someone like V. C. Andrews would melt your brain.

 

[Hermiod]

Well, sure. But that's not even the point. I watched Angel mostly for the female characters. I hated the show for most of Season 5 simply because Cordelia was no longer around.

While I won't disagree that the show missed Cordy, I believe her departure was unavoidable.

Again, not the point.

What is the point then ? That the show was worse without Cordelia ? That you liked Cordelia more than the male characters ?

I liked Angel Cordy (as opposed to Buffy Cordy) too for the most part.

 

[RoJoHen]

While I won't disagree that the show missed Cordy, I believe her departure was unavoidable.

Again, not the point.

What is the point then ? That the show was worse without Cordelia ? That you liked Cordelia more than the male characters ?

I liked Angel Cordy (as opposed to Buffy Cordy) too for the most part.

The question being asked was if any men liked shows/movies because of their female leads. I was using Angel as an example in that I stopped caring as much about the show when their main female lead died. I didn't care that much about Angel, Gunn, Wesley, or Lorne. I liked the show primarily because of Cordelia's character (and yes, I even liked her on Buffy). I only started caring about the show again when Cordy came back in "You're Welcome" and then later when they killed Fred. Episodes focusing on the male characters I really didn't care as much about. Hell, I was more interested in Darla's character back in Season 2 than I was about anyone else in the cast.

I like female characters. I dislike the absence of female characters. Male characters, more often than not, don't interest me as much.

Cordelia was merely an example. I don't care whether or not Charisma Carpenter was leaving the show. That wasn't the point. The point was that I watched that show mainly for its female lead(s).

Same with Ally McBeal. I don't care if you liked the show or not. I'm just saying I watched it because I enjoyed the strong female characters.