Do Vulcans tell lies?

[Christopher]

I don't know why Spock would say it that way.

Because it was the second pilot, the first time his dual ancestry was mentioned, and they hadn't yet settled on the specifics. Note that in "Mudd's Women," which was written around the same time as "Where No Man" and was a candidate for the second pilot, Spock is identified as only "part-Vulcanian." It wasn't until the series proper that they decided Spock would be fully half-human; in "The Corbomite Maneuver," they had Spock specify that his mother considered herself a fortunate Earthwoman, and in in "The Enemy Within," Spock referred to having "a human half... as well as an alien half." (His species name isn't mentioned again until Chapel calls him a Vulcan in "The Naked Time," though his planet was identified as Vulcan an episode earlier in "The Man Trap."

Anyway, since the "one of my ancestors" line was in a mutually teasing exchange with Kirk over a chess game, we can assume in-universe that Spock didn't intend it to be taken seriously or literally.

(The fact that Harry Mudd recognizes Spock as "part-Vulcanian" on sight, combined with Spock saying the Scary Balok Puppet reminds him of his father, suggests that full Vulcans were originally presumed to look more alien than Spock. I wonder what they would've looked like if they'd stuck with that idea. Probably bigger ears and eyebrows, greener skin, that sort of thing.)

 

[Planxty]

I mean sometimes it’s most logical to lie, like in a life or death situation, but humans lie without reason over super trivial stuff.

“Yes, the casserole you made was DELICIOUS!!!” So not logical.

 

[Tosk]

Depends on who made the casserole.

 

[The Wormhole]

I mean sometimes it’s most logical to lie, like in a life or death situation, but humans lie without reason over super trivial stuff.

“Yes, the casserole you made was DELICIOUS!!!” So not logical.

If Vulcans don't like a casserole, they'll say so without worry of offending.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

How easy is it to accept yourself?

The older I get, the more I do.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I wonder what they would've looked like if they'd stuck with that idea. Probably bigger ears and eyebrows, greener skin, that sort of thing.

Would Vulcans be as iconic as a species if that had been the case?

 

[fireproof78]

Would Vulcans be as iconic as a species if that had been the case?

All depends on the actors.

 

[Christopher]

Would Vulcans be as iconic as a species if that had been the case?

Why not? Remember, in TOS/TAS we never saw any other Vulcans except in "Amok Time," "Journey to Babel," and "Yesteryear" (and a cameo in "The Time Trap"). Vulcans became iconic because Spock was iconic. I don't see why giving them a different appearance would have had any effect on that, any more than changing the Klingons' appearance reduced audience's interest in them.

After all, presumably the design would've been along the lines of "Spock, but more so," having the recognizable attributes associated with Spock but in an exaggerated fashion. And that would play right into how human psychology works. The reason caricature is effective is because the mind tends to perceive faces that way anyway, assigning exaggerated weight to distinct features over more generic features. Thus, people often recognize a caricature of a celebrity more easily than a photograph of them. So there's no reason an "exaggerated Spock" makeup wouldn't be recognized as associated with Spock.

More importantly, what makes characters "iconic" isn't anything as superificial as their appearance. There are lots of cool-looking Trek aliens that never caught on because there weren't any interesting characters associated with them.

Indeed, imagine the impact it would've had on stories like "Amok Time" and "Yesteryear" if Spock's half-human nature had been something visible to other Vulcans at a glance, if it had been impossible for him to pass as full Vulcan. It would've underlined his feeling of being an outsider even more than it already was, so it would've been a reflection of one of the core concepts that made Spock iconic to those of us in the audience who struggled with our own feelings of being outsiders and were drawn to Spock as a result.

Still, if that was their original intent, presumably the reason they abandoned it was partly logistical. It would've been harder to do "Balance of Terror" or "Amok Time" with a more elaborate alien makeup, because they had multiple guest actors who needed to be made up. As it was, both episodes put the extras in helmets so they wouldn't have to make up their ears. Although a more important reason in BoT was probably that the plot required the Romulans to look like Spock so that Stiles could credibly suspect him of being a spy.

 

[mb22]

Why not? Remember, in TOS/TAS we never saw any other Vulcans except in "Amok Time," "Journey to Babel," and "Yesteryear" (and a cameo in "The Time Trap").

And Surak in "The Savage Curtain" (although technically, I suppose he wasn't exactly "real")..

 

[Christopher]

And Surak in "The Savage Curtain" (although technically, I suppose he wasn't exactly "real")..

Oh yeah, forgot him. Help me, Kirrk!!!

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Still, if that was their original intent, presumably the reason they abandoned it was partly logistical. It would've been harder to do "Balance of Terror" or "Amok Time" with a more elaborate alien makeup, because they had multiple guest actors who needed to be made up.

Full Vulcans could have been greener than Romulans, I suppose, or favor different hair colors. A wig/hair dye/naturally colored hair of the actor and/or some face paint.

 

[Verteron]

I wonder what they would've looked like if they'd stuck with that idea. Probably bigger ears and eyebrows, greener skin, that sort of thing.

Maybe something like this?

While I appreciate this doesn't match their in-universe backstory, the Reman makeup has always struck me as 'hyper-Romulan' with all their features turned up to 11.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe something like this?

While I appreciate this doesn't match their in-universe backstory, the Reman makeup has always struck me as 'hyper-Romulan' with all their features turned up to 11.

From context, I assume the undisplayed image is of a Reman. I've never seen their design as being that similar to the Romulans; I see it more as being inspired by bats and skulls. I've never liked the way some tie-ins interpret them as some kind of mutated Romulans. It seems to me that the obvious intention of the movie is that they were the indigenous people of Remus who were conquered and enslaved by the Romulan colonizers.

 

[kkt]

They don’t lie.

They exaggerate.

Any sufficiently advanced exaggeration is indistinguishable from a lie.
(with apologies to A.C. Clarke)

 

[Verteron]

There are a few exchanges in The Undiscovered Country that speak to Vulcans ability to lie. Crucially these are between two Vulcans and while there is obviously subterfuge on the part pf Valeris it can be considered 'honest' in the sense that both are Vulcans who are well aware of their species limitations (or lack thereof).

KIRK: Who is 'us?'
VALERIS: Everyone who stands to lose from peace.
KIRK: Names, Lieutenant.
VALERIS: My comrades will make sure all your ship-to-ship transmissions are Jammed.
KIRK: Names, Lieutenant.
VALERIS: I do not remember.
SPOCK: A lie?
VALERIS: A choice.

There are two kinds of lies.

• Lying by commission — the active use of false statements
• Lying by omission — the passive act of misleading by failing to disclose relevant information

My line of thinking on the Vulcans has always been that they have no issue lying by omission - but their minds, trained in logic and science, have a much harder time lying by commission, i.e. making up false statements. I think it is something they can break through, probably aided by spending time among other less logical beings (us humans). The brain learns from its environment.

After all, we've seen Vulcans on undercover 'ops' such as Tuvok on Chakotay's ship, Valeris who was working against the Klingon peace, and Tallera/T'Paal, the isolationist who was after the Stone of Gol. They wouldn't be much good at this if they couldn't lie at all, but they may well be able to conduct themselves in such situations mostly using easier lies of omission rather than commission.

 

[Christopher]

My line of thinking on the Vulcans has always been that they have no issue lying by omission - but their minds, trained in logic and science, have a much harder time lying by commission, i.e. making up false statements. I think it is something they can break through, probably aided by spending time among other less logical being.s The brain learns from its environment.

I'd say that's true to some extent, but it's also overthinking it. The myth that "Vulcans can't lie" is based on hardly very little canonical evidence, and most of the canonical references are things that non-Vulcans mention as a saying or belief about Vulcans. There are far more examples in canon of Vulcans lying and using deception than there are examples of characters referring to the belief that Vulcans can't or don't lie. So there's no reason to take the saying seriously at all. It's just folklore.

At most, honesty is a cultural ideal Vulcans aspire to, like logic and pacifism, but as with those, the mere fact that they aspire to it does not mean they automatically live up to it. Spock said "I cannot tell a lie" in TVH, but he'd just spent weeks being re-indoctrinated with a Vulcan education, so the ideal was fresh in his mind. It would be unreasonable to take it as evidence of a species-wide trait, or even a consistent trait of Spock's, given all the times we did see him engaging in deceit before that.

 

[Jayson1]

Is a lie a lie or is it the truth from a certain point of view?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

most of the canonical references are things that non-Vulcans mention as a saying or belief about Vulcans.

Perhaps the Vulcans they've known have had higher standards. Or said Vulcans are more skilled liars than most.

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps the Vulcans they've known have had higher standards. Or said Vulcans are more skilled liars than most.

Or audiences should simply not be so gullible as to assume something is objectively true just because a few characters have referred to it as existing folklore. I mean, if a character says they believe in Bigfoot, that doesn't prove Bigfoot is real in the character's world.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Or audiences should simply not be so gullible as to assume something is objectively true just because a few characters have referred to it as existing folklore. I mean, if a character says they believe in Bigfoot, that doesn't prove Bigfoot is real in the character's world.

Shhh. You're depressing Virginia O'Hanlon.