We know Vulcan males under go Pon Farr every 7yrs of their adult lives. Is this a natural biological period for Vulcans or a result of emotional suppression? If it is biological, do Romulans and other Vulcanoid males suffer from Pon Farr?
Do Romulans have Pon Farr?
- Thread starter ConRefit79
- Start date
There is no canon reference dictating either. Of course, it's silly to believe they don't, for reasons too obvious to get into.
Rett Mikhal
Captain
That is a very good question. Is Pon Farr physical or mental? The Romulans seem less in control of emotions but more mentally advanced with their superior technology.
I think the fact they've multiplied to almost Earth population from a small detachment of Vulcans is evidence. Then again they could just be the opposite of the Baku and mate constantly.
How often did the Romans have children? Probably how often the Romulans do.
I think the fact they've multiplied to almost Earth population from a small detachment of Vulcans is evidence. Then again they could just be the opposite of the Baku and mate constantly.
How often did the Romans have children? Probably how often the Romulans do.
I would think that "Pon Farr" is a physiological consequence related to the strain of suppressing emotions, we know that Vulcan Males, once they've experienced their first Pon Farr, have to endure it every seven years, whereas Vulcan Females, well its not quite clear, but we know they experience it too
Since the Romulans rejected Surak's teachings and indeed do not supress their emotions its safe to assume they don't suffer from Pon Farr
Since the Romulans rejected Surak's teachings and indeed do not supress their emotions its safe to assume they don't suffer from Pon Farr
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That wouldn't make much sense, since pon farr is so destructive. If were nothing more than a pure social construct, they would employ some more middle-ground (and logical) solution that would avoid the killing and rape narrowly avoided in "Amok Time."
Also, what kind of social construction forces the exact same effects (desire to screw every seven years, violent rages, idiocy) on every individual?
And how could it possibly have been successful? Even assuming that utilitarian concerns don't enter into it because they're philosophical zealots, how does the practice initially spread? If pon farr and all its accompanying unpleasantries (murder, rape) were a result of the suppression of emotions, wouldn't that have been well known since the time of Surak? I'd rate such a creed's chances of mimetic success as roughly the same as Peter's Christianity--you know, the one with all the mitzvot intact, particularly the one enjoining male circumcision.
In other words, I wouldn't expect a lot of adult converts, because murder, rape, and the potential for being murdered or raped are not great selling points for any organization.
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You just convinced me more about my theory. We saw that Tuvok has rage inside outside of pon farr. I'm gonna say it's some kind of intense psychology side effect to their lifestyle.
Instead of blaming it on Surakian suppression of emotions, it might make sense to consider it a byproduct of the desert life forced on Vulcans by whoever transplanted them onto their overtly hostile planet.
The concept of telepathic bonding might be a great way to reduce the risks of inbreeding: even though it's a chore, the groom is forced to brave the deserts and travel to the next village to mate with his chosen one, rather than take the girl next door like dad, granddad and great-granddad would have done had they had the choice.
However, such a crude mechanism might easily backfire or overshoot, creating severe mental conflict, angst, aggression, what-have-you. Still better than inbreeding, though - and a desert community would have the young males killing each other in any case.
Take away the hostile environment, restore full freedom of movement in physical and social sense, and you might get rid of the backlash effects. Or then you might let loose a monster that devours the entire society. Perhaps the Romulan tradition of dishonorable backstabbing is their way of pon farr; it's just that on their lush planet, it comes every forthnight.
Timo Saloniemi
The concept of telepathic bonding might be a great way to reduce the risks of inbreeding: even though it's a chore, the groom is forced to brave the deserts and travel to the next village to mate with his chosen one, rather than take the girl next door like dad, granddad and great-granddad would have done had they had the choice.
However, such a crude mechanism might easily backfire or overshoot, creating severe mental conflict, angst, aggression, what-have-you. Still better than inbreeding, though - and a desert community would have the young males killing each other in any case.
Take away the hostile environment, restore full freedom of movement in physical and social sense, and you might get rid of the backlash effects. Or then you might let loose a monster that devours the entire society. Perhaps the Romulan tradition of dishonorable backstabbing is their way of pon farr; it's just that on their lush planet, it comes every forthnight.
Timo Saloniemi
What I don't understand is how getting the snot beat out of you has exactly the same physical effect as Pon Farr's other resolution, especially if it was just a physical drive to find a mate. If it's purely physiological, then both Spock and Vorik would have died when they didn't mate.
But maybe all that is needed is a cathartic physical expression of emotion to stop the mind and body from poisoning itself. This would be consistent with the way Tuvok dealt with his Pon Farr. A hologram just isn't the same as a flesh and blood being, but if physical action is only required on Tuvok's part it could end the Pon Farr.
So I believe it's partly psychological and partly physiological, but not quite as simple as the drive to find a mate. Part of it might be purging pent-up emotions, which Romulans handle in a different way and have their own fights to the death for different reasons. But since at least part of it must be physiological, I would imagine it happens to Romulans too but in a different way, perhaps not as life threatening.
But maybe all that is needed is a cathartic physical expression of emotion to stop the mind and body from poisoning itself. This would be consistent with the way Tuvok dealt with his Pon Farr. A hologram just isn't the same as a flesh and blood being, but if physical action is only required on Tuvok's part it could end the Pon Farr.
So I believe it's partly psychological and partly physiological, but not quite as simple as the drive to find a mate. Part of it might be purging pent-up emotions, which Romulans handle in a different way and have their own fights to the death for different reasons. But since at least part of it must be physiological, I would imagine it happens to Romulans too but in a different way, perhaps not as life threatening.
I never have understood why some fans believe that the pon farr process naturally culminates in rape. If Spock remained in the blood fever, you might have a point, however.
Spock doesn't enter the blood fever until after T'Pring issues the challenge, up until then he was in at least partial control of himself. The blood fever might not be a common part of pon farr if there is no challenge. After combat the need for the blood fever disappears, Spock might not have been completely freed of the effects of pon farr yet, but he had re-obtained the level of rational thought that he arrived at the arena with and that would have stayed with him if T'Pring had simply accepted the marriage.
Although, if the bride's blood fever only kicks in after the marriage, then there might still be rape . . . just not by the groom
SPOCK :
No. Nor am I man. I'm a Vulcan. I'd hoped I would be spared this, but the ancient drives are too strong.
Eventually, they catch up with us, and we are driven by forces we cannot control ... to return home and take a wife ... or die.
Notice Spock didn't say "have sex with the ship's nurse or a T'Hooker," nor did he say to " return home and mate."
Spock specifically said "And take a wife." Not get laid, so something more involved than just sex is happening during Pon Farr. The compulsion may be to form a family unit, both to have children and take care of them through to maturity, family's stabilize socialites, that's the evolutionary advantage of Pon Farr. Form a family, a tribe, a community. This would prosper the entire Vulcan race and increase the likelihood of childhood survival.
Vulcan could be a dangerous place, especially during primitive times. If two females become pregnant by two (different) males. One male only has a psychological compulsion for sexual activity. The other male has a psychological compulsion to form and maintain a family unit. Of the resulting two children, one with a single parent, one with two parents, which one statistically has a better chance to grow up and pass on it's genes? Easy, the child with the genes to compulsively form a family unit.
If the true purpose of pon farr is to create a family, not to mate, then that's why Spock at least didn't die. A family was formed, Stonn and T'Pring. Once Spock knew this, his psychological need was satisfied and pon farr was over for him. I don't remember the VOY episode well enough to comment on Vorik.
Maybe not. Of the three friends that I have who are in arranged marriages, the intended spouse was always from the same town (in India), and usual a forth cousin. Arranged marriages throughout history tend to be inside of some kind of group, race, religion, money, social. If Spock's family was important (T'Pau), it's likely T'Pring's was too. And they might have been distant cousins as well.
The ancient practice of arranged (in childhood) marriage might have also served as a form of "crowd control." I believe Spock did not begin pon farr until after T'Pring was already in pon farr (female version), it wouldn't make any sense to arrive prior to the bride being ready, or at all if she were deceased. In historic times the groom would simply walk across the village or in from the fields. But in ancient times, before bonding, the bride might have broadcasted her "readiness" to ever male for hundreds of kilometers. All of whom would have come running.
T'Pau's comments to Kirk seem to imply that T'Pring could have chosen any of the male's in the arena, in historic times this would have prevented a bride from having to marry a weak groom to whom she had been bonded to as a child. In ancient times there might have been a free for all of combat.
I've actually thought that the Romulans did genetic engineering on themselves to alter their height and build to be better suited to their temperate world...removing Pon Farr might've been something else they did along the same time.
"When did Pon Farr evolve into the male Vulcan lifecycle?" Also "Did this happen when the Vulcans and Romulans were at their closest time in relationships ie before they seperated and became two distinct races?"
If these could be answered, I would guess that we have an overall answer. But in general I have never heard mentioned in any ogf the programmes that involved Romulans. Even though the two races are distantly connected they are two seperate groups in many distinct ways. Romulans are a warring aggresive race that has the attitude more of Klingons than the Vulcans. There is no room for logic in the way they do things either in war or diplomacy. So I would guess that there is no Pon Farr for their males, which I would think is a relief for them
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If these could be answered, I would guess that we have an overall answer. But in general I have never heard mentioned in any ogf the programmes that involved Romulans. Even though the two races are distantly connected they are two seperate groups in many distinct ways. Romulans are a warring aggresive race that has the attitude more of Klingons than the Vulcans. There is no room for logic in the way they do things either in war or diplomacy. So I would guess that there is no Pon Farr for their males, which I would think is a relief for them
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Interesting theories.
It's been a long time since I watched Amok Time. I thought there was something in there that strongly implied Pon Far was a consequence of emotional suppression. Maybe it's a fannon assumption.
T'Girl's theory is especially interesting although it sounds more like an artificial genetic trait - maybe implanted by Sargon's people before they seeded the Vulcans on their marginally-habitable world.
It's been a long time since I watched Amok Time. I thought there was something in there that strongly implied Pon Far was a consequence of emotional suppression. Maybe it's a fannon assumption.
T'Girl's theory is especially interesting although it sounds more like an artificial genetic trait - maybe implanted by Sargon's people before they seeded the Vulcans on their marginally-habitable world.
I hadn't noticed T'Girl's post...that might also give the Romulans a propensity towards genetically engineering themselves as I suggest, if any cultural influence came from Sargon's people to the Vulcans.
I cannot find an online script for "Amok Time", but I am also certain Spock said it was a consequence of emotional suppression and logic.
Yeah, I can see the Romulans genetically engineering themselves. It only makes sense for an intelligent species to direct their own evolution - when they are capable and mature enough to do so. The Romulans, being very egotistical and arrogant, would predictably feel they are ready before other species.
I just re-watched Amok Time. McCoy speculated that PonFar was a consequence of emotional suppression but nothing more conclusive than that. So we don't know.
T'Gir's post makes sense for the first Pon Farr, but doesn't explain why it happens every 7 years, provided the family unit is still stable.
I still think it is at least mainly a consequence of suppressing emotions. Take Spock: he's only half Vulcan, so if it were purely physiological, it would be logical to assume he would have a milder version of it, influenced by his human half. However, he suppresses emotions as well as any Vulcan we've met and better than some, and he has as severe a pon farr as we've seen...
I still think it is at least mainly a consequence of suppressing emotions. Take Spock: he's only half Vulcan, so if it were purely physiological, it would be logical to assume he would have a milder version of it, influenced by his human half. However, he suppresses emotions as well as any Vulcan we've met and better than some, and he has as severe a pon farr as we've seen...
However, do we have any proof that it would continue happening in a stable family unit?
We never saw Sarek in the throes of pon farr when he was married to Amanda or Perrin. We saw Tuvok suffer from it when he had a family unit - but one torn asunder by galactic distances, perhaps cutting the all-important telepathic connection. Spock's description of pon farr in "Amok Time" and "Cloud Minders" alike completely sidesteps the issue of whether there will be another pon farr in the future if the first one is successfully concluded. Other Vulcans, too, describe the repeating pon farr in terms of repeatedly attempting to find a mate, yet do not explain what happens after the mate is found.
I'm on the same lines with T'Girl in that the chaste 1960s dialogue establishes pon farr as a process of finding a mate and taking a wife (/husband), not as a process of having sex. Apparently, there can be many resolutions to pon farr, including finding and wedding a mate, finding and discarding a mate, and dying of the agony of not finding a mate. Only extremely seldom does male-to-male rage enter the picture, and only extremely seldom is it the cause of pon farr death or injury; the death that Spock was dreading in "Amok Time" must have been from something else than fatal dueling, because Spock clearly was not expecting fatal dueling. Probably the death effect would come from the telepathic-emotional equivalent of blue balls, and could not be directly alleviated by physical sex or violence - but the latter two acts might help steer the person towards finding his or her "inner peace" and come to some sort of a resolution regarding the mate-finding.
Timo Saloniemi
