Do moveis II-IV negate Spock's enlightenment in TMP?

[plynch]

A huge thing in TMP is Spock melding with V'Ger, and understanding the importance of feeling/connecting with others, things a purely logical machine will never grasp.

But then Spock gets "re-set" and redevelops in III and IV. He's still kind of blank walking around San Fran in IV.

But in V, he's a "whole" person again: Sybok can't shock him, since Spock has moved beyond his earlier dad issues. And Spock has remained pretty whole through the rest of the franchise (e.g. Unification and Trek XI).

But don't II-IV sort of negate what I view as a pretty cool self-discovery in TMP?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No, they don't.

Nimoy's performance as Spock is always different after ST:TMP - whatever dialogue he's given, he delivers it with more patience and less edge than he did back in TOS. Look at the "argument" he has with McCoy in Kirk's quarters, about the Genesis project - Bones is still on the same page he always was, and Spock isn't challenged by it any more.

On a very nitpicky level, I've always especially liked the substitution of "learn to govern your passions" for the once familiar "learn to control your emotions" in that scene. They're basically synonymous but connote somewhat different things.

 

[SchwEnt]

No, I think Spock came through all right. And consistantly.

Yes, TMP was a revelation for Spock. Between the Kolinahr and V'Ger encounters,
he has a life-altering enlightenment. We see glimmers of this at the very end of TMP.

In TWOK, Spock is at his best. Finally at peace with who he is. He embraces his duality, neither supressing his human half nor strictly Vulcan. He enjoys his best of both worlds, is comfortable with it, and seemingly is content. You really get a sense of that from Nimoy's portrayal.

Of course, just as he reaches this lifelong quest to feel at ease with his unique identity and self... he dies.

TSFS and TVH can only show him coming back from the dead.
By TUC, we see Spock finally back where he was back in TWOK.
(with Meyer at the helm again, no surprise there)

So II-IV don't negate Spock's enlightenment.
TWOK is really the embodiment of that transformation.
The others are a bit of a sidetrack on account of, you know, being dead.
But by TUC, Spock is back to his enlightened self.
So say I.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

TWOK confirms Spock's enlightenment, especially in the scene Dennis points out.
TSfS is after he's died and come back, and in the end, when he gets his katra back, we see that there's something missing.
TVH shows Spock regaining that "something".
TFF shows Spock is almost back to normal. A bit more broody than normal, but it carries through nicely to the next film.
TUC is back to Spock ala what we saw with TWOK. Still a touch broody, but certainly not much is different between this Spock and the one from TWOK.

 

[Destructor]

I think Spock's broodiness in STVI is actually a sign of his character growth across the movies, and TMP informs that. He's basically become at peace with his Vulcan/human duality, and knows that he can express emotion without betraying himself (which is why he can 'get angry' at Valeris). This actually continues into Unification and ST09, where he is even more at peace with his two sides.

 

[sbk1234]

Since Spock transferred his Katra to McCoy in TWOK, it possessed the growth/enlightenment that he gained in TMP. Ii makes sense that it would only take a while to fine tune this after the Fal-Tor-Pan in TSFS. As has been discussed, Nimoy's performances supported this.

 

[plynch]

Re: Do movies II-IV negate Spock's enlightenment in TMP?

Since Spock transferred his Katra to McCoy in TWOK, it possessed the growth/enlightenment that he gained in TMP. Ii makes sense that it would only take a while to fine tune this after the Fal-Tor-Pan in TSFS. As has been discussed, Nimoy's performances supported this.

Yeah, that makes some sense. I think I should have specified III and IV negating TMP, since, yes, he seems pretty whole in II.

So you think the kaatra would retain self-growth even though it's placed in a "new" Spock body that had to relearn other things? I'm not challenging, ya, just askin. Be well.

 

[sbk1234]

It's all good, Plynch. I honestly haven't given it that much thought, but since there really wasn't that much time between III and V, and his Katra contained an entire lifetime of experience, including his encounter with Vejur, I have no problem accepting it.

 

[plynch]

Re: Do movies II-IV negate Spock's enlightenment in TMP?

It's all good, Plynch. I honestly haven't given it that much thought, but since there really wasn't that much time between III and V, and his Katra contained an entire lifetime of experience, including his encounter with Vejur, I have no problem accepting it.

I like the explanation. To me the whole Spock wholeness thing in TMP sort of fulfills the series, since his whole emo suppression thing was such a major part of it.

Spock's enlightenment moment in sickbay in TMP is really one of the better parts of the film. Like everything, it took too long to get to, but oh well. I liked the film then, and like it now. Live long and prosper.

[** attribution note: this thread prompted by an article in Jan/Feb 2010 "Star Trek" mag comparing TMP to TFF by Scott Pearson.

 

[Sky]

Nimoy's performance as Spock is always different after ST:TMP - whatever dialogue he's given, he delivers it with more patience and less edge than he did back in TOS. Look at the "argument" he has with McCoy in Kirk's quarters, about the Genesis project - Bones is still on the same page he always was, and Spock isn't challenged by it any more.

Hmmm. Excellent observation. I've never thought of the scene in those terms. Will have to rewatch.

I think what's so fascinating about Spock's character is that we're able to see almost the whole lifetime of a person - and the slow way he comes to accept himself and becomes whole. A character development spanning 40 years.