Do humans of the 24th Century really work to better themselves?

[M.A.C.O.]

OR

Do they lounge about due to having all their needs fulfilled?

Serious Question i've been pondering. Picard said several times during TNG and in FC that humanity has evolved beyond the desire for possession of things and wants. In the 24th Century Earth; hunger, disease, and famine are things of the past. Also there is no money in the 24 Century. A line spoken by Picard, Jake Sisko and Tom Paris.

So what does everyone who is not a member of Starfleet do to pass the time? With their being no money or drive to possess material goods; the rat race for limited resources we (humans of today) experience IRL is over.

We have Robert Picard and Joesph Sisko for our non-Starfleet human examples. Both continue to work and provide goods and services. Despite the need (for survival) and presumably the monetary reciprocity awarded for their efforts. I would call that an act of spending ones time doing something they enjoy a positive reflection of what Capt Picard has said so often.

However, what is the inverse of that? With their being no inclination to work and provide food and shelter for oneself. What's to stop a portion of Earth's citizens from lounging in their house, stuffing replicated cheetos in their mouth and playing whatever future version of Call of Duty in a holosuite or some other form of entertainment?

 

[borgboy]

I've thought that before too.
I can understand that some people would want to work in the arts, or join Starfleet. But how do you get people to wait tables and work in shops? We've seen Sisko's dad's resteraunt staffed with wait staff. How in the world does anybody have the motivation to wait tables if their basic needs and comforts are being provided?
I'd be a total slacker if I could get away with it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What I don't understand is this:

If the food at Sisko's restaurant is free, then why aren't there always lines around the block 24/7?

Having food (or anything else, for that matter) actually cost something, helps to put a damper on things, so to speak. It makes some people not want a thing, if they'll have to pay for it. So logically speaking, if something is free, then everyone will want it, and everyone will try to get it. So why isn't this the case here?

And don't tell me that they can just replicate the food, because we all know that people can tell the difference between replicated food and the real thing. Joseph Sisko, being the gourmet chef he is, would probably recoil in horror at the very mention of the word 'replicator'.

 

[Nebusj]

However, what is the inverse of that? With their being no inclination to work and provide food and shelter for oneself. What's to stop a portion of Earth's citizens from lounging in their house, stuffing replicated cheetos in their mouth and playing whatever future version of Call of Duty in a holosuite or some other form of entertainment?

Isn't this pretty much the same question asked when the workday, for the working classes, was limited to twelve and then ten and then eight hours? That with all that free time to do what-we-will they'd just go to their moral ruin? (How did the moral ruin of the working classes pan out by the way? I've been busy.)

 

[HIjol]

Good question on waiting tables and the more "menial" tasks...in the case of Robèrt Picard, I would think making wine would be a true "labor of love"...tilling and fussing and caring for and crafting and such...plus, he did not strike me as much of a fan of all the Magnificence...

 

[Melakon]

Some of those 24th century people would be lazy asses, sure. But others might take a job as a waiter or janitor because they like helping people, or they like to clean things instead of letting a robot do the work.

Some people might be attending something similar to college classes all their lives, simply because they want to learn new things.

As for no lines around the block at Sisko's, maybe not everybody likes Creole cooking.

 

[doctorfoto]

There was actually a rather spirited thread that ran somewhat recently on a similar line of questioning here.

 

[The Wormhole]

Humans in Star Trek do seem somewhat laid back, more keen to take vacations or enjoy free time than the alien characters. Spock was said to refuse leave time, Worf was noted by Picard for not complaining, even when there was just cause, and indeed even Geordi commented when Kurn was aboard that Kurn was giving everyone a hard time, except Worf "the one guy who wouldn't mind it." Sisko even commented Worf was one officer who never had enough work.

One of my favourite lines showcasing the lethargy of humans vs aliens is Tosk in DS9's Captive Pursuit. "You spend one third of your day sleeping, and seek rest and relaxation for the remainder?"

Presumably Earth being a paradise where one doesn't actually have to work has influenced the attitudes we see in the human characters vs the aliens who either have to work for their standing in their society or at the very least have cultural influences stating the importance of work over free time.

 

[JesterFace]

I live in a parallel fantasy where money does exist in the Star Trek universe and people work in Starfleed, among other places, to get paid, otherwise it just wouldn't make much sense...

 

[T'Girl]

^ As do I.

In that interpetation of the show, yes you can exist without money, but that would be just all you'd be doing, existing. Basic housing, clothing and food. You won't starve, freeze in the winter, or cook in the summer.

Beyond that you would obtain employment, there always something if you look hard enough.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

What I don't understand is this:

If the food at Sisko's restaurant is free, then why aren't there always lines around the block 24/7?

Having food (or anything else, for that matter) actually cost something, helps to put a damper on things, so to speak. It makes some people not want a thing, if they'll have to pay for it. So logically speaking, if something is free, then everyone will want it, and everyone will try to get it. So why isn't this the case here?

And don't tell me that they can just replicate the food, because we all know that people can tell the difference between replicated food and the real thing. Joseph Sisko, being the gourmet chef he is, would probably recoil in horror at the very mention of the word 'replicator'.

For one thing, supply and demand must work VERY differently on 24th cen. Earth. Everyone has easy access to transporters, which means they can go to any restaurant in the world with less effort than it takes me to walk down the street to the gas station. If you're hungry and the restaurant you picked says 'It'll be at least an hour', you're probably just going to go somewhere else.

Secondly, price is only one of many details that shape peoples decisions. Even today, where we do have to work for our food, plenty of people are willing to pay extra just to not have to make the effort of cooking, or to not have to wait. People like that may just not want to go out when they can pull food out of the wall and be eating right away. There is also a large portion of people who honestly don't care much about food. They eat because they have to, but they don't go out of their way for a special dining experience.

There's also the question of atmosphere. People will avoid restaurants with an unpleasant atmosphere, and since most people prefer not to eat in a ridiculously noisy and overcrowded space, there is still a natural limit to the number of people a restaurant will generally attract.

 

[T'Girl]

Everyone has easy access to transporters, which means they can go to any restaurant in the world with less effort than it takes me to walk down the street to the gas station.

But the transporters are one of the things we know does require some form of payment/credits. It might be like the modern day telecommunications network, the futher you wish to transporter, the more it would cost you. Long distance charges.

No one ever said transporting was free, but Sisko did say it cost him.

As a working Cajun restaurant, Joseph probably does charge his customers for their excellent food and dirink. On top of whatever Joseph pays his waitstaff and kitchen people, they would hopefully be nicely tipped by the restaurant's patrons.

If you can't afford to eat at a restaurant (any restaurant) or make you're own meals, there would be public shelters that would serve basic meals. No one staves.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And even if anyone can transport to Sisko's whenever they want, that would still clog up the transporter network. Too many people trying to beam to the same place at the same time would cause some havoc, I'd think.

Of course a different economic system would require some tweaking to the laws of supply and demand, but those laws wouldn't simply vanish. Make things too easy to obtain and everyone will want them. And if those things are unique, like Sisko's cooking, how does this play out?

 

[borgboy]

I have always been puzzled by how Trek's non economy works. I get the general impression that you can be idle and still have a decent apartment, health care, basic replicator food, free access to their version of the internet and entertainments like movies and books, etc. But things like restraunts, holodecks, high fashion and such require some form of barter or trade if not money.

I'd think if there weren't limits placed on holodeck use there'd be a problem with more holo-addicts. Given half a chance I could easily imagine being a holodeck addict, the whole idea of being able to control your world, have the life and relationships you want at the push of a button, that's very seductive. Real life is hard, holodecks are easy.


I have thought that maybe Sisko's wait staff worked a shift now and then in exchange for x number of meals.

 

[T'Girl]

I worked briefly at McDonalds, on top of wonderful minimum wage, we got a base burger and a small soft drink ... every shift.

Wow !!

And even if anyone can transport to Sisko's whenever they want, that would still clog up the transporter network.

Bandwidth.

 

[borgboy]

I expect the food at Sisko's is substantially better than McDonald's.
I was also thinking the system would be something like one shift gets you three or four meals. There has to some initiative to get people to wait tables when all their basic needs are getting met.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And even if anyone can transport to Sisko's whenever they want, that would still clog up the transporter network. Too many people trying to beam to the same place at the same time would cause some havoc, I'd think.

Of course a different economic system would require some tweaking to the laws of supply and demand, but those laws wouldn't simply vanish. Make things too easy to obtain and everyone will want them. And if those things are unique, like Sisko's cooking, how does this play out?

They wouldn't all be trying to transport to Siskos. One assumes there are plenty of other restaurants in the world. And they wouldn't all be trying to transport at the same time. When everything is just around the corner, people can pick and choose the best times with no penalty.

And I think you're massively overestimating the amount of people who will absolutely positively want to eat at Sisko's right now. Few people would go to the effort of going to a restaurant for every meal, even if it was free. If they saw the restaurant was unusually busy, most of those would just find another restaurant, unless they just loved this chef's food more than anything else. (And the number of people who honestly think Joe Sisko is the only great cook in the world is probably very small.)

People go to restaurants for a number of reasons:

Status - this means nothing in the federation.
Convenience - this means nothing in the Federation.
Change of pace - this does apply, but generally implies that such people would not go eating out very often.
Social experience - this does apply, but in a world where work is voluntary, EVERYTHING can be a social experience, so this would not put an undo strain on restaurants.
Because they're not in a position to cook for themselves - this doesn't happen in the Federation.
To experience fine cuisine/real food - This also applies, but is likely to be only a minor motivation. The average citizen of earth is most likely raised on replicated food, so any taste discrepancy is more often to the disadvantage of real food than the advantage.

In short, I can't see any reason why people in 24th cen. earth would go to restaurants significantly more often than we do today.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I expect the food at Sisko's is substantially better than McDonald's.
I was also thinking the system would be something like one shift gets you three or four meals. There has to some initiative to get people to wait tables when all their basic needs are getting met.

Since other people can just walk in and eat, that wouldn't really be much of an incentive.

I would say people are willing to wait tables because the one thing that is in short supply on earth is meaningful employment that can make you feel useful (yes, waiting tables can be enough to make someone feel useful - certainly if they're a big people person). I would also imagine that waiting tables in sisko's is a far cry from what people are assuming it is. Waiters would have to be treated very well, since they can just walk away at any time without repercussion. I would also guess that many young people would be required by their parents to find some kind of work in order to learn the value of discipline, cooperation, etc.

 

[borgboy]

I expect the food at Sisko's is substantially better than McDonald's.
I was also thinking the system would be something like one shift gets you three or four meals. There has to some initiative to get people to wait tables when all their basic needs are getting met.

Since other people can just walk in and eat, that wouldn't really be much of an incentive.

I would say people are willing to wait tables because the one thing that is in short supply on earth is meaningful employment that can make you feel useful (yes, waiting tables can be enough to make someone feel useful - certainly if they're a big people person). I would also imagine that waiting tables in sisko's is a far cry from what people are assuming it is. Waiters would have to be treated very well, since they can just walk away at any time without repercussion. I would also guess that many young people would be required by their parents to find some kind of work in order to learn the value of discipline, cooperation, etc.

I'm operating under the assumption that fine dining, like holodeck use and other luxuries, is being "paid" for somehow. Some kind of benign credit system that I can't imagine how it works. The alternative is that there are people waiting tables just because they want to, with no ulterior motive than the pure joy of waiting tables. That doesn't seen very likely.

Of course, it's difficult for us to have the mindset of a 24th century person who isn't obligated to work for their basic needs to be met.

 

[JesterFace]

Star Trek is "only" few hundred years in the future, this no money culture would be easier to understand if Trek took place for example in the year 3000 or something.

 

[T'Girl]

I was also thinking the system would be something like one shift gets you three or four meals. There has to some initiative to get people to wait tables when all their basic needs are getting met.

But if you're stipulating that meals at Sisko's are free for the taking, and anyone can eat there who manages to reach the front door, (again) why work at all for something which is free?

The obvious answer is that the meals aren't free, and Joseph is controlling who enters his establishment. It might take weeks or months to obtain a reservation at Sisko's.

His employees aren't working just for meals, but for income in some form. Yes, a meal during their breaks might be part of their employment agreement, but it's difficult to see them getting nothing else for their efforts.

Of course, it's difficult for us to have the mindset of a 24th century person who isn't obligated to work for their basic needs to be met.

And if they want more than just the barest basic is that handed to them too? Or is advancing beyond that minimum a matter of expending effort?