Do Grades And Degrees Mean As Much As We Think?

[Spot's Meow]

I think that this is the answer here. I feel that this is the true valuable skill that you learn in your education. You actually learn real things in elementary and middle school, tangible facts and basic proficiencies that provide a foundation for understanding the world. Any education thereafter is about learning one thing: how to figure out what people want and BS enough to give it to them.

You two guys make US education sounds a lot like it is in China or India where the students spend all of their times repeating back what their profs have said to them.

Well you'd be lost on one of my courses because I'm looking at your ability to critically assess sources and develop an argument supported by those sources, it's largely irrelevant if I agree with that argument or not - if you are just reciting back to me the material I've provided in lectures and seminars, you might be able to get a passing grade but nothing more.

I didn't mean that the content should reflect what the professor wants, more the structure and the way you provide the content. Whether a professor agrees with the argument you're making isn't important, but what they consider great writing and research is largely a matter of their personal opinion, and you have to tailor your papers to their specific preferences. For example one professor takes the "less is more" approach and wants you to be as succinct as possible, so you write with this in mind and they love it, while another looks at that same paper and says that you need to expand on your ideas and include more analysis. So you write a more in depth and detailed analysis, and then the first professor says you have over-analyzed and should learn to present your ideas in less space. After you get past getting the basic facts correct, the rest is very subjective, and you have to figure out how to present it in a way that that professor wants. I don't mean this as a bash on professors, I think all humans in general are like this; they have certain ways of communicating and understanding the world, and if you can tap into that you can gain a lot of insight and success. It's not unlike many jobs I've had where different supervisors will impose different expectations, sometimes on the same exact task, and you are somehow meant to please all of them while still asserting your own personal style. It can be difficult to juggle, but I feel my education has prepared me well for it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I was trying(awkwardly I guess) to ask if it says anything different about what you accomplished? Would you be more impressed with someone with a degree in one area as opposed to another if you were an employer?

It depends on what position I am hiring them for, I suppose. If I were hiring for something completely unrelated like cleaning toilets, I wouldn't care either way, but in that case I fail to see the point.

even math and science professors have flexibility in how they grade, what assignments they choose, what they choose to test on, how easy they make the tests, etc. Sure, the difference between a math test and a history essay is that you can point to an answer on a math test and say "this answer is correct or incorrect," but that doesn't mean the grade overall in the class is objective just because you can mark certain answers right or wrong.

In the real world, nothing is completely objective, so yes, even math and science professors have some flexibility in grading. It doesn't see all grading is completely subjective, or than some grading systems can't be more objective than others.

Again, two people looking at a math problem will agree 2+2=4, but two people looking at a paper can disagree about the grade it deserves. And in that case, apart from obvious things like spelling or grammar, how would you decide who is right? Is it like two people arguing over how many stars "Empire Strikes Back" should get?

I kinda get what are you going for, but what would be your suggestion? Most people would recognize that grading is indicative, but I'd still say it's a useful indication.

My experience has been that it is more important WHERE you studied than THAT you studied. No one gives a shit about your GPA after you graduate, but a degree from Yale is worth more than one from Podunk Community College.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is another point of difference between US and, for example, Italy. Where you studied mean a great deal, but it's not the end of it. Actually, this is changing nowadays: in the past there was little variability in universities. There were specific universities that were well-known for specific subjects (Milan for economics, Bologna and Padua for physics, Rome for law and political sciences, etc.) but the state was quite careful to enforce a minimum on the curriculum, so you'd be sure that wherever your employees studied, they would have a good knowledge base. Generally speaking, university were trusted to give a very good education, so the specific institution was not particularly relevant. Unfortunately, recently we have seen an increase of private colleges and small universities, which are not so careful to ensure a proper curriculum for their own students. One of the flaws of the university reform pursued in Italy in recent years.

Some of the most difficult exams in engineering school were multiple choice. Yeah, it came down to picking A, B, C, or D - after 45 minutes of diagrams and calculations.

In some ways, non-multiple choice exams were better. At least you could get some partial credit for showing your methodology was correct, but the answer is off because time was running out and you got careless with the decimal point.

I agree, and this is exactly the reason why I think multiple choice exams are incredibly stupid. I want students to understand why and how we do things, not that can make long calculations without a single mistakes. That's what computers are for.

 

[Drago-Kazov]

I feel so bad about only figuring out how to game the school system in 12th grade. I should had gone to a weaker school and gone to competritions like i did anyway. I copuld had worked something out. Considering how lax they were when it came to class attendance in some schools i could have had a part time job somewhere illegaly.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well, it's not like schooling did a whole lot of good to you anyway, didn't it.

Please check your spelling and syntax, it's atrocious.

 

[SmoothieX]

I agree, and this is exactly the reason why I think multiple choice exams are incredibly stupid. I want students to understand why and how we do things, not that can make long calculations without a single mistakes. That's what computers are for.

Sometimes, it's an economy of scale sort of thing. You got 500 students in a freshman chemistry class. You either get 2 or 3 TA's to grade all of them based on a key, or shove them through a scantron machine.

I've had some experience with exam development at the national level where it is strictly pass/fail. It's not the easiest thing. I never realized how exact of a science psychometrics is.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I agree, and this is exactly the reason why I think multiple choice exams are incredibly stupid. I want students to understand why and how we do things, not that can make long calculations without a single mistakes. That's what computers are for.

Sometimes, it's an economy of scale sort of thing. You got 500 students in a freshman chemistry class. You either get 2 or 3 TA's to grade all of them based on a key, or shove them through a scantron machine.

I can see your point. Still, I feel it's kinda unfortunate for the students, and not the best use of educational resources. That's life, I guess.

Of course, in my university we were 100 freshmen, tops, and we shrunk to 50 after the first semester, and to 25 at the start of the second year. After that, the number more or less stabilized.

Lots of people have strange ideas about studying astronomy, and they are usually crushed by Basic and Advanced Calculus.

 

[SonOfMogh]

I'm in the UK, and in my experience any further education you do is almost a complete waste of time unless you are doing a specific vocational qualification and want to be a doctor, accountant, teacher etc.

Nearly everyone does a degree in business or media studies for 4 years then starts work 4 years later and 4 years behind people their own age with no knowledge of work etiquette and how to get ahead.

 

[mimic]

Having grown up in an environment in which people were more or less expected to attend university, I used to think that not having a bachelors degree meant you weren't all that intelligent, but I've since learned how completely wrong I was. I know some extremely bright people who went to trade school or in one case dropped out of high school in the 9th grade. My ex-boyfriend once showed me around his workplace (a safety test center, crash dummies everywhere, etc.) and impressed me with the amount of physics he'd picked up from his year working there. He is a welder and had never taken any engineering or physics courses in his life.