Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsverse?

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

If the timelines share a past, than yes, they did both happen.

Since the explicit ages of all the characters have changed, and events that were known to happen prior to TOS did not happen in the movie... well, they don't share a past.
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Have they? I'm pretty sure Kirk's age in consistant with what was established in TOS (Deadly Years) The others seem close to what was shown in TOS. Scotty and McCoy are still older than Kirk by at least a decade. Chekov, who was born after the split is the only anomaly. The actors might be older than the characters they're playing, but thats not the same as the characters being older. Unless Chekov, in TOS, was 30 year old Ensign.

What events prior to TOS are you refering to? The split happens three decades before TOS begins so the events of those three decades will not be the same. The movie ( to my knowledge) doesn't make any reference to events prior to 2233

 

[Vance]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Since the explicit ages of all the characters have changed...

I thought only Chekov's age had changed?

Officially. But to make it work, McCoy is 10 years younger than he should be. Uhura and Sulu should be young and should be in grade school if Kirk is a cadet at this time. The character ages are all messed up.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Since the explicit ages of all the characters have changed...

I thought only Chekov's age had changed?

Officially. But to make it work, McCoy is 10 years younger than he should be. Uhura and Sulu should be young and should be in grade school if Kirk is a cadet at this time. The character ages are all messed up.

The McCoy actor may be ten years younger, but there's nothing to indicate the character is any younger. McCoy is seemingly an M.D. already at this point, which would have to place him at least in his late-20's. Then you add another three years for the time jump in the film to 2258 which is still 8 years before TOS.

I always saw Sulu as a contemporary of Kirk, whose career took longer to develop because he started in the science division. Uhura sits in that same boat... for me anyway. Not everyone gets to make captain of a starship at 29.

With the exception of Chekov, the character ages seem to match up pretty well.

I have many issues with this movie... but the ages of the characters isn't one of them. YMMV.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Since the explicit ages of all the characters have changed...

I thought only Chekov's age had changed?

Officially. But to make it work, McCoy is 10 years younger than he should be. Uhura and Sulu should be young and should be in grade school if Kirk is a cadet at this time. The character ages are all messed up.

Well if you go by Memory Alpha's info Sulu was born in 2337 (four years after Kirk), Uhura sometime in the 2230s (making her anywhere from the same age to six years younger than Kirk) and McCoy in 2227 (making him seven years older than Kirk). So going by Kirks age in ST09's second half ( taking place in 2258) Sulu ( and possibly Uhura) is 21 and McCoy is 31. So,how do you figure Sulu and Uhura would be in grade school in the late 2250s and McCoy would be in his forties?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Other than Kirk, Scotty ("Relics"), McCoy ("Encounter at Farpoint") and Chekov ("Spectre of the Gun" - the age they changed to fit him on the crew) everyone's ages are conjecture from the 1994 Star Trek Chronology, which simply used the actors ages to fill in the blanks. The Chronology has been freqently ignored by subsequent movies and episodes - for example, there's no way Zephram Cochrane was 30 in First Contact.

A few novels in the 80's came up with ages for the characters. I recall The Final Reflection putting a seven-year-old Spock in the same timeframe as a toddler McCoy. The animated episode "The Counter-Clock Incident" seemed to indicate that Spock was the oldest member of the crew.

 

[Cadet49]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

I've been thinking about this recently, and I'm inclined to believe that in the new reality, Zefram Cochrane never met Picard and the Borg in 2063, and Quark never crashed in Roswell in 1947. Why? Because those two events were caused by events in the future, a future which will not take place in the Abramsverse, due to it being a parallel continuum (I personally have difficulty believing the "doubling" theory put forth by the film's writers, and think that the Abramsverse was already a different reality long before Nero turned up).

You could stretch this idea even further. If Picard never met Cochrane, and Quark never crashed in Roswell, then it's unlikely that Spock ever manages to pilot the Jellyfish. And even if he did, his memories of Kirk should be different, yet they are not.

This illustrates that at the very least it's not just one timeline with an abundance of time loops.

If it was one timeline that could be overwritten or a multiverse, then whatever came first would remain. Every backwards time travel visit that happened before 2233 indeed happened.

Proof that it is a different universe could also be the fact that even though Vulcan was destroyed by Nero in 2258, the Jellyfish continues to exist, even though it was build in 2378 on Vulcan. If this is the same universe, the Jellyfish would never be build, and indeed, Nero would never want to destroy Vulcan in the first place, since it was destroyed in 2258, presumably before Nero was ever born, so it would not be around to attempt to save Romulus from the Hobus star in 2378. Yet the Jellyfish continues to exist after the destruction of Vulcan. Also, the fact that Spock Prime has a conversation with his younger counterpart, yet apparently has no memory of once talking to his future self in 2258, seems to indicate this is a different universe.

The question is - if Spock Prime went back in time to 2063 in this new reality, would be encounter the Enterprise-E from the Prime Reality, and when it returned to the future, would that get him back to his own universe?

 

[Cadet49]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

The timeline didn't split in two in "The City on the Edge of Forever." It didn't split in two in "Yesterday's Enterprise." It didn't split in two in "Past Tense." It didn't split in two in First Contact. It was a single quantum reality that kept changing internally. If a character travels back in time and changes history, the future he/she came from will cease to exist. They themselves might still exist, but this could be due to the actual act of travelling through time; everything they knew could still be gone forever.

Well, if you read Crucible: McCoy, it theorizes that an alternate universe was in fact created, the one in which McCoy saved Edith Keeler from being killed. A really good read! And the novel Q-Squared suggests that the alternate universe we saw in Yesterday's Enterprise continued to exist after the Enterprise-C returned to the Prime Universe...

 

[Gojira]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

The timeline didn't split in two in "The City on the Edge of Forever." It didn't split in two in "Yesterday's Enterprise." It didn't split in two in "Past Tense." It didn't split in two in First Contact. It was a single quantum reality that kept changing internally. If a character travels back in time and changes history, the future he/she came from will cease to exist. They themselves might still exist, but this could be due to the actual act of travelling through time; everything they knew could still be gone forever.

actually in first contact it did split in two as when the enterprise arrived on earth after the borg went thru time the earth was 100% borg so an alternate timeline was created... it just wasn't expanded upon.

There is no indication that the alternate time line that was created in First Contact continued on. The entire movie was about repairing the alternate time line created by the Borg. Belief that the altered time line continued on is just fun speculation but it is nowhere in the movie.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Sure they do. It's all the same "universe."

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Belief that the altered timeline continued on is just fun speculation but it is nowhere in the movie.

But it is according to multiverse theory in TNG's "Parallels". If a universe exists for every possibility, then one must exist where the Enterprise-E didn't undo the Borg's damage in 2063 (just as the TOS universe, where Nero didn't appear in 2233, must also still exist)

Of course, this kinda replaces free will with simply changing lanes on an infinite-yet-predetermined road map - but since that road map is huge beyond any possible comprehension, what difference does it make? Free will is an illusion, you've done everything else possible in a trillion trillion other timelines, but since they're cut off from you (unless you've got a subspace fussure and a visor, or a modified transporter and/or an ion storm), a difference which makes no difference is really no difference at all.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

But can you then punish people for their crimes? Since they are in a universe whey the commited the crime and they couldn't change if they wanted to how does that work as to intent? In numerous other universes they didn't commit the crime. They are in a universe where they HAD to commith the crime so are they guilty? It would be like punishing them for falling if you pushed them out of a plane without a parachute.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

But can you then punish people for their crimes? Since they are in a universe whey the commited the crime and they couldn't change if they wanted to how does that work as to intent? In numerous other universes they didn't commit the crime. They are in a universe where they HAD to commith the crime so are they guilty? It would be like punishing them for falling if you pushed them out of a plane without a parachute.

From the POV of the people in the criminal's universe, they've still got a criminal to deal with - to them, quantum duplicates in other realities don't and shouldn't matter. Or at the very least, the prosecution, driven by the same multiverse forces that forced the criminal to commit his crime in this universe, also has no choice but to prosecute the criminal.

Things get really weird by the version of the 29th century seen in "Relativity", where alternate copies of people are Tuvix'd together and people are arrested for crimes they haven't commited yet...

 

[Sector 7]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

If "Little Green Men" and "Trials and Tribble-ations" cease to exist, then there would be no reason at all for me to watch DS9. Personally, I hope they do exist.

 

[Tiberius]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

I've been thinking about this recently, and I'm inclined to believe that in the new reality, Zefram Cochrane never met Picard and the Borg in 2063, and Quark never crashed in Roswell in 1947. Why? Because those two events were caused by events in the future, a future which will not take place in the Abramsverse, due to it being a parallel continuum (I personally have difficulty believing the "doubling" theory put forth by the film's writers, and think that the Abramsverse was already a different reality long before Nero turned up).

Yes, they did occur. However, it was quark from an alternate timeline, and Picard and co from an alternate timeline.

But, because the event that split the timeline had not occured, that must mean that the future is an alternate timeline!

 

[Admiral_Young]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

First of all...one would have to assume that this time line unfolds the same way as the prime time line did and we already know that would be an incorrect assumption given the changes made in this reality. I really do not believe that a fan can compare the two time lines any more. This one will diverge completely different than the prime time line will. This is why they decided to go in this direction in the first place. Spock mentions this on the bridge of the Enterprise when he states that whatever they were meant to do in the original time has been fundamentaly altered and that Ambassador Spock has to live with what he did. Not only did he sacrifice himself but he also altered these people's futures. Spock was genuinely surprised when Kirk mentioned he was not Captain of the Enterprise when the two of them met. The fact that there are these changes means that this time line will not unfold as the original did. Everything is different and potentially new. This is what JJ and company wanted and why they're probably struggling with the script to the sequel. They don't want to simply rehash what's been done before. So to answer EJA's question I would hazard a guess that no "Little Green Men" did not occur in this time line because there was no Quark or Deep Space Nine for it to happen. The future of this time line is not set in stone. We don't know what happens, we can only assume.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

First of all...one would have to assume that this time line unfolds the same way as the prime time line did and we already know that would be an incorrect assumption given the changes made in this reality. I really do not believe that a fan can compare the two time lines any more. This one will diverge completely different than the prime time line will. This is why they decided to go in this direction in the first place. Spock mentions this on the bridge of the Enterprise when he states that whatever they were meant to do in the original time has been fundamentaly altered and that Ambassador Spock has to live with what he did. Not only did he sacrifice himself but he also altered these people's futures. Spock was genuinely surprised when Kirk mentioned he was not Captain of the Enterprise when the two of them met. The fact that there are these changes means that this time line will not unfold as the original did. Everything is different and potentially new. This is what JJ and company wanted and why they're probably struggling with the script to the sequel. They don't want to simply rehash what's been done before. So to answer EJA's question I would hazard a guess that no "Little Green Men" did not occur in this time line because there was no Quark or Deep Space Nine for it to happen. The future of this time line is not set in stone. We don't know what happens, we can only assume.

But this timeline didn't branch off of the main one until 2233.04. They both share the 'same 1930,1947,1968,2061', so it doesn't matter if events unfold the same way going forward from 2233.04.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Which would allow Spock to get back to his own timeline.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

Which would allow Spock to get back to his own timeline.

That would really depend on what the time-travel mechanics of the Abramsverse are. He would not only need a mechanism to move forward in time... but also one that would allow him to switch 'time tracks'. If he returned to the point of Nero's original incursion and destroyed the Narada, he would simply be creating a third track that would be more similar to the track he is originally from.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

He could return to any number of points in the past and hide himself (Spock is a smart guy after all) on a ship returning to the 24th century.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Do FIRST CONTACT & "Little Green Men" still happen in the Abramsve

He could return to any number of points in the past and hide himself (Spock is a smart guy after all) on a ship returning to the 24th century.

That would imply that Spock is in the loop on what are probably classified missions within Starfleet Command, which I doubt he would be. It would also have to be on a ship that would get him close enough to 2387 that he wouldn't die waiting for his earlier self to disappear.