Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

[JarodRussell]

Not a TOS or TOS movie fan, then?

I know Kirk's anti-authority history - but that Kirk stood up for his decisions and faced the consequences. He didn't try to sweep everything under the rug like a teenager hiding his playboys. An ability to think independently, even when that means questioning your own orders is clearly a desired quality in Starfleet captains (and rightly so, given how many insane admirals we've seen) - but when you turn that into Kirk ignoring his orders while at the same time casually trying to convince Starfleet he's doing everything by the book, that's basically saying that Starfleet doesn't even matter to him. Like its beneath him, because he clearly knows best in all things.

That's not the kind of personality you want in control of a starship.

He did sweep things under the rug. From "Flashback"...

JANEWAY: You may be right. Nevertheless, I've been studying the Excelsior logs.

KIM: What do they say?

JANEWAY: Unfortunately, they don't say anything at all.

KIM: Nothing?

JANEWAY: It would seem that Captain Sulu decided not to enter that journey into his official log. The day's entry makes some cryptic remark about the ship being damaged in a gaseous anomaly and needing repairs, but nothing else.

KIM: You mean he falsified his logs?

JANEWAY: It was a very different time, Mister Kim. Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, Dr. McCoy. They all belonged to a different breed of Starfleet officer. Imagine the era they lived in. The Alpha Quadrant still largely unexplored. Humanity on verge of war with Klingons. Romulans hiding behind every nebula. Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages. No plasma weapons, no multiphasic shields. Their ships were half as fast.

KIM: No replicators, no holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the academy, I always wondered what it would be like to live in those days.

JANEWAY: Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit, I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that.

http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/225.htm

That's was Sulu, not Kirk.

And it was about the events in the timeframe of The Undiscovered Country, were both the Enterprise and the Excelsior were acting against official Starfleet orders anyways.

And the whole Flashback episode should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In that case, why don't you go make us a nice list of all the episodes and movies that count in this discussion.

 

[JarodRussell]

Judging from your signature, you seem to have the time to do so. I don't.

 

[BigJake]

@King Daniel &c. The premise of the "Flashback" episode in Voyager is a virus hiding itself inside a series of fake "memory engrams" created to conceal its existence from its host. IIRC it turned out there was no record of the mission Tuvok "remembers" because the memory is false, not because Sulu actually falsified his logs.

So, Janeway's charming speech about the old days notwithstanding -- and it is telling that she thought that would be a plausible explanation -- the "memory" involved is probably not the counterexample you were looking for. A better one might be Captain Sulu lying to Starfleet in Undiscovered Country when he's asked to disclose the whereabouts of Enterprise. (We've discussed in various places that some of the writing flaws in the BadRobot films are really just exaggerated versions of tropes the movies had already used.)

Also, it'd be a treat if you could knock it off with the petulant snark.

 

[Kelthaz]

In that case, why don't you go make us a nice list of all the episodes and movies that count in this discussion.

Perhaps any episodes and movies relating to the character in question? You made a mistake and thought that Janeway was talking about Kirk; admit it and move on.

 

[F. King Daniel]

While the log entry was Sulu's on Excelsior, Janeway's reply to Kim's astonished "You mean he falsified his logs?" makes it pretty clear Kirk was known for that kind of thing too.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She was painting all 23rd Century captains with a broad brush.

 

[Sindatur]

In another episode (I think) Janeway stated Kirk and his fellow cowboys would all be drummed outta Starfleet in her time, because "Times were different"

 

[Nerys Myk]

I just watched TNG: Birthright were Worf lies to Picard about there being survivors of the Khitomer Massacre. How dare he conceal the truth! He's a Starfleet officer!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You must hate Spock then, who on two occasions falsified orders to follow a personal agenda. Not to mention trying to kill his CO on at least two occasions! Why is he still in Starfleet?

I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about, but I don't remember any time when Spock disobeyed orders and then tried to hide it after the fact to avoid taking responsibility. Two other things that are relevant here: Spock eventually becomes a Captain, but is never shown as having a command of his own, and in regards to 'Amok Time', he was under the influence of a seriously mind altering biological process. You might as well hold everyone responsible for their responses to the Psi 2000 virus...

I wonder if Kirk told Starfleet he disobeyed orders in "Amok Time"? Or did he just pretend he got the revised orders and then proceeded to Vulcan? He also agreed to hide Cochrane's where abouts and the circumstances of Hedford's death.

Allowing Cochrane to live in peace is hardly the same as a captain trying to sweep his own flouting of all the rules under the rug.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You must hate Spock then, who on two occasions falsified orders to follow a personal agenda. Not to mention trying to kill his CO on at least two occasions! Why is he still in Starfleet?

I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about, but I don't remember any time when Spock disobeyed orders and then tried to hide it after the fact to avoid taking responsibility. Two other things that are relevant here: Spock eventually becomes a Captain, but is never shown as having a command of his own, and in regards to 'Amok Time', he was under the influence of a seriously mind altering biological process. You might as well hold everyone responsible for their responses to the Psi 2000 virus...

I wonder if Kirk told Starfleet he disobeyed orders in "Amok Time"? Or did he just pretend he got the revised orders and then proceeded to Vulcan? He also agreed to hide Cochrane's where abouts and the circumstances of Hedford's death.

Allowing Cochrane to live in peace is hardly the same as a captain trying to sweep his own flouting of all the rules under the rug.

It's never going to be an exact parallel. Your insistence that it must be casts doubts on your desire to have an honest discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?

Spock was in Command of the Enterprise at the beginning of TWOK. Yes it was a training vessel, but he was the Captain.

 

[BillJ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.

We also know that Riker falsified reports and lied to a board of inquiry and didn't fess up to it until years later when he got caught. (See: The Pegasus).

It comes down to some liking a particular version of Trek and excusing their flaws but trying to nail Abrams films for the same flaws. I wish some would simply admit it's about the Messenger and not the flaws themselves.

 

[Greg Cox]

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?

Oh, that's small potatoes compared to Spock hijacking the Enterprise in "The Menagerie." And let's not forget him using a nerve pinch on some poor security guy in order to take an unauthorized spacewalk in TMP, in which he had a secret agenda to make contact with V'Ger for pretty much the entire movie . . .

 

[bbjeg]

^ You beat me to "The Menagerie."

 

[JarodRussell]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?

 

[BillJ]

Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?

I don't know? Ask Will Riker?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Conscience of the King contains some dodgy moves by Kirk. He calls in a favor to strand the Karidian Company so he can transport them. He also alter his ship's course to accommodate them. He romances Karidian's daughter. All part of his plan to expose Karidian as Kodos.

Of course earlier in the episode he chastises Leighton for doing the same thing.

KIRK: You said you discovered a new food concentrate. What am I supposed to put in my log, that you lied? That you diverted a starship with false information? You're not only in trouble, you've put me in trouble, too.

KIRK: And I have to get back to my ship and figure out how I'm going to enter all this in my log. Tom. Martha.

Hmmmm, what did he enter in his log? Would he have mentioned Leighton's lie?

 

[BillJ]

"Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!" - Carol Marcus, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

"The word ...is no. I am therefore going anyway." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

"As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?" - Federation President, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

"If you continue to complain, from deeper in your canon, there are things even more unpleasant". - Me, with special assist from The Cage

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.

You're wrong. The topic I was speaking of was not falsifying reports, it was Kirk's moral integrity.

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?

I don't know. Do you know that he lied to Starfleet about it in his official report?

Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not Kirk breaking the rules, but Kirk considering himself entirely above the rules. Which is, incidentally, exactly what Pike says about him in ID, as well...

 

[Rayna]

Well, if Trek '09 had been the abomination that some people seem to consider it to be...

But as far as the general public was concerned it wasn't, and as far as the Trek fanbase is concerned, it's my opinion they should be grateful that something happened to revive interest in the franchise even if they didn't care for the precise form that it took.

Well put! I myself am 19 and would have never watched TOS unless Trek had been introduced to me through the Abrams movies. Now, I far prefer TOS, but I am grateful that my generation was successfully introduced to Trek. I think a new incarnation of the Prime timeline would do just as well, especially for people who are new to the series like I was.