Dixon Hill vs The Royale

[Mojochi]

So, as we know, Picard has a penchant for the Dixon Hill novels, & holodeck play, on top of his love of classics, which seems at odds, but as I pointed out in another thread, they do have a little common ground, in both being period fantasy stuff for him.

What never made any sense to me was how much he seems to have a distaste for The Royale, that he reads in the episode of the same name. Do we have to assume it was written so much worse than his Dixon Hill? Frankly, I always thought a lot of his Dixon Hill stuff sounded just as trashy.

Honestly, if I were Troi or Riker, trying to find a birthday gift for Jean-Luc, I might see The Royale, & remember all his Dixon Hill exploits, & think it might be right in his wheelhouse... but apparently not?

 

[Lance]

True.... I guess, maybe, in it's prose form Dixon Hill is more like a Raymond Chandler, whereas The Royale is a cheap dime-store type novel. The holodeck version of Dixon Hill comes across as pulpy, but then, the movie of The Big Sleep doesn't necessarily stay true to the text either.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Haha, I've always giggled about this and wondered just HOW his Dixon Hill stuff is SOOOOO much better than the cheesy dialogue from "Hotel Royale". I guess he's simply missing the private detective aspect... and he'd probably say "Mickey D just ain't no Cyrus Redblock" (in that terrible American accent he does in "Clues").

 

[Khan Jr]

Fans of a work can be the most vehement critics of something slightly different. It's even possible a fan could love one show about a future star fleet exploring the galaxy while mercilessly blasting another show about a future star fleet exploring the galaxy.

 

[Orphalesion]

I mean that's the problem I have with the Royale Episode. It tries to make fun of bad and cliched writing....when early TNG (especially season 2) was full of bad and cliche writing...
And as if it wasn't obvious that they were trying to do a parody, every five minutes a character states how bad the Royale novel is.

And, sorry, but as a watcher I find the Royale less cringey than watching Picard LARP a noir story...

 

[Herbert]

This is easily explained given that Dixon Hill was a childhood hero of Jean Luc. For that reason, it's reasonable that he would give the Dixon Hill stories a pass while being critical of the text of the Royale book, reading that as an adult.

 

[Mojochi]

Ahh, @Herbert & @Khan Jr make some sense. Basically we're saying Picard is a Dixon Hill fanboy. lol

In truth though, I'd like to believe that someone who has the capacity to understand the value of the classics, like Shakespeare & Melville, would have to have evolved beyond the kind of inter-fandom grudge holding that is a trait you might see more in a place like this hahaha

For example, I have a deep appreciation for classics, but like Herbert was saying, grew up on Mr. T & the A-Team episodes, which for me were a lot of fun, but I see now how truly silly & bad they were. I can still enjoy those through childhood rose colored glasses, but I knowingly admit it for what it is.

Picard doesn't seem to like Dixon Hill in that same way though. There's no admission of it being a cheesy guilty pleasure. He considers it legit

 

[Nerys Myk]

The 24th Century DixBBS is full of folks who hate the Royalists.

 

[Mojochi]

#NOTMYPULP

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Royale isn't portrayed as just guilty pleasure pulp, it's portrayed as being horribly written even by pulp standards. Full of cliches and ridiculous writing. Like, this Mickey D character who murders somebody just in the middle of the hotel.

 

[amp]

The Royale isn't portrayed as just guilty pleasure pulp, it's portrayed as being horribly written even by pulp standards. Full of cliches and ridiculous writing. Like, this Mickey D character who murders somebody just in the middle of the hotel.

I agree. I think the equivalent might be how today's fantasy readers feel about the Xanth novels, or thriller readers feel about The Da Vinci Code. (No offense to fans of Piers Anthony or Dan Brown.)

 

[DonIago]

Is it surprising that there's good noir and bad noir?

 

[Mrs. Silvercrest]

I think it is funny now that it has been pointed out how much The Royale and Dixon Hill are alike.I guess since Picard gets to play the main character, he does not care how silly the plots are. Though, I like the one where he is hiding from Deana's mom in the program and he freezes the program and just sits in there.

 

[Mojochi]

I just don't see the quality shining through in the Dixon Hill stuff, to say it's so much better than the Royale. Heck, the Johnny character Guinan is interacting with in Clues is one of the hackiest Humphrey Bogart impersonations imaginable, as is the Felix Leech/Peter Lorre knockoff. There's the sleazy cop coming on to Beverly. The corny receptionist. stereotype etc...

I suppose we have to accept that these stories are somehow filtered through how Picard himself has programmed them into the holodeck program, but he seems utterly impressed with how true to form they are, & they seem pretty lame lol

 

[HugeLobes]

As someone else mentioned, Dixon Hill owes a lot to Raymond Chandler. Chandler's novels aren't ever going to be considered high literature, but they're still some of the most iconic works within the detective novel genre - in fact, they helped reinvent it. All that Dixon Hill/Philip Marlowe sort of stuff seems incredibly cliched now, but at the time it was part of a whole new wave of hardboiled detective fiction. As ever, what was revolutionary yesterday becomes cliched today. More importantly, Chandler's style is very distinctive and continues to rank among the most acclaimed within 'genre fiction'. I've read a couple of his novels and while the stories were thin and the characters (in modern terms) incredibly cliched, the language is just wonderful, especially the dialogue.

I don't really think it makes sense for Jean Luc Picard to idolize 'Dixon Hill', so I wasn't surprised to learn it came about more because Patrick Stewart liked the character. But even so, it's a huge leap from an iconic piece of genre fiction to something genuinely bad like The Royale, just like it would be a huge leap from one of the lesser detective stories to Data's beloved Sherlock Holmes.

 

[Herbert]

Picard doesn't seem to like Dixon Hill in that same way though. There's no admission of it being a cheesy guilty pleasure. He considers it legit

That's a fair point but I put that down to the fact that it's the story they were trying to tell, which is really the simplest explanation and answer to many of the questions posed on this message board. The story wouldn't have worked if Jean Luc rolled his eyes at Dixon Hill, like he did with The Royale.

For example, I have a deep appreciation for classics, but like Herbert was saying, grew up on Mr. T & the A-Team episodes, which for me were a lot of fun, but I see now how truly silly & bad they were. I can still enjoy those through childhood rose colored glasses, but I knowingly admit it for what it is.

The A-Team ROCKED! I just watched a couple episodes the other day. Yeah, it's cheesy but it was, and is, a fun show to watch.

 

[Lance]

The 24th Century DixBBS is full of folks who hate the Royalists.

"This new version of Dixon Hill is BAD! It isn't true to the vision of Maurice Hurley, the Great Falcon Of The Galaxy. It comes across as too optimistic and utopian, when Dix is meant to live in a craphole world. I give it 1.5 out of 5."

 

[Alexander Corrino]

For some reason I can totally see Jean-Luc getting all riled up about a Dixon Hill novel that isn't like the others and LOUDLY voicing his displeasure (but never to the extent of insulting others for liking it, of course). He's such a nerd. Bless him.

 

[Kor]

Dixon Hill is classic 1940s detective fiction, with a distinctive sense of romantic panache.
"Hotel Royale" is modern-day trash that they sell in the book and magazine section of the grocery store.

Kor

 

[Nakita Akita]

It's what Picard likes. If I got to be a character in Harry Potter, I'd think it was the best literature on the planet, or in the universe!
But some of the other Witchcraft stuff out there, not so much.
I just wish that there had been resources available for his literary interests to be less 20th century pedestrian.
I'd have rather seen him in a Roman quarum or in some place on another planet.