Disney's BLACK HOLE -- FX information?

[milo bloom]

I have the progressive lock-in-full feature on my HDTV

The *what* feature?

(I've been waiting for a 16x9 copy of 2010 for years!)

Fortunately the Blu-Ray version is out now.

It's less a feature, than an annoying bug on certain displays. Whenever a progressive signal is sent from a playback device, it locks the screen modes so I can't use the zoom function on my TV to "zoom" non-16x9 DVDs. So I get the lower left image on this page on my TV: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html and I can't zoom it. And using the zoom function on my DVD player leaves a "2X" icon on the screen all the time.

I can turn off progressive scan on my DVD player for those titles so I can zoom them, but then the image isn't as good, so what's the point? This is basically why I told Lucas a couple of years ago he could take his laserdisc transfer original version DVDs and stick them where the twin suns of Tattoine don't shine.

And BluRay is still a ways off for me. I've just yet to be convinced of the need for it, considering there's still so many problems with the titles (including the 4x3 transfers of the first season of the Dini/Timm Justice League animated series. Absolutely unforgivable).


Edit to add: just to clarify this is why I got rid of my non 16x9 version of The Black Hole DVD.

 

[Christopher]

And BluRay is still a ways off for me. I've just yet to be convinced of the need for it, considering there's still so many problems with the titles (including the 4x3 transfers of the first season of the Dini/Timm Justice League animated series. Absolutely unforgivable).

No, that's the way it's supposed to be. The first season of JL was actually shot in the 4:3 ratio and had the top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen, unlike the later seasons which were shot in the wider ratio. So with the first season, the 4:3 ratio is actually the full image, more than we got in its TV run. It's not pan-and-scanned. (However, the composition of the shots was designed with widescreen in mind, of course, so not much is going on at the top and bottom of the frame.)

 

[Maurice]

What about the Death Star animation in the briefing scene of the first Star Wars movie? I seem to recall seeing a documentary (a long time ago..) detailing how difficult it was producing those few seconds of wire-frame graphics due to the state of computers back in the mid-1970's. (Ah, the wiki article linked up-thread says yes. Nevermind.)

The wiki article's wrong, it wasn't computer animated - I know the guy who did it...

Then please explain this short documentary about how the briefing was done by Larry Cuba (http://www.well.com/~cuba/Biography.html). More about his work on this web page.

 

[milo bloom]

And BluRay is still a ways off for me. I've just yet to be convinced of the need for it, considering there's still so many problems with the titles (including the 4x3 transfers of the first season of the Dini/Timm Justice League animated series. Absolutely unforgivable).

No, that's the way it's supposed to be. The first season of JL was actually shot in the 4:3 ratio and had the top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen, unlike the later seasons which were shot in the wider ratio. So with the first season, the 4:3 ratio is actually the full image, more than we got in its TV run. It's not pan-and-scanned. (However, the composition of the shots was designed with widescreen in mind, of course, so not much is going on at the top and bottom of the frame.)

The creators have gone on record as saying they wanted it widescreen from the start, but Cartoon Network was leery of doing a letterboxed show (afraid the kiddies would have Pokemon style seizures or something). They animated it at 4x3, but it is very clearly animated for 1.77.

From here:http://animated-views.com/2008/justice-league-season-one-blu-ray/

The producers were originally asked by Cartoon Network to make the show for 4:3 viewings, knowing that many viewers would be children accustomed to seeing their shows fill up their standard-sized TV screens. The producers argued for a widescreen presentation, and got their way… almost. The show was still produced in the 4:3 ratio, but Cartoon Network agreed to also air a widescreen version in a different time slot. As a result, the widescreen image does cut off the picture at the top and bottom; but because the show was composed with this in mind, the cropped image is actually more dynamic and aesthetically pleasing. The producers and most fans therefore tend to prefer the widescreen image.

I can find more quotes from Dini/Timm later, but it should have been widescreen from day one and I will not purchase it any format until it's done right.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And using the zoom function on my DVD player leaves a "2X" icon on the screen all the time.

You may be able to set your DVD player so that it doesn't display onscreen messages like that.

 

[Lonemagpie]

What about the Death Star animation in the briefing scene of the first Star Wars movie? I seem to recall seeing a documentary (a long time ago..) detailing how difficult it was producing those few seconds of wire-frame graphics due to the state of computers back in the mid-1970's. (Ah, the wiki article linked up-thread says yes. Nevermind.)

The wiki article's wrong, it wasn't computer animated - I know the guy who did it...

Then please explain this short documentary about how the briefing was done by Larry Cuba (http://www.well.com/~cuba/Biography.html). More about his work on this web page.

I was always under the impression Dan O'Bannon did it - he certainly seems to think he did

 

[Christopher]

No, that's the way it's supposed to be. The first season of JL was actually shot in the 4:3 ratio and had the top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen, unlike the later seasons which were shot in the wider ratio. So with the first season, the 4:3 ratio is actually the full image, more than we got in its TV run. It's not pan-and-scanned. (However, the composition of the shots was designed with widescreen in mind, of course, so not much is going on at the top and bottom of the frame.)

The creators have gone on record as saying they wanted it widescreen from the start, but Cartoon Network was leery of doing a letterboxed show (afraid the kiddies would have Pokemon style seizures or something). They animated it at 4x3, but it is very clearly animated for 1.77.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't know why you'd think it necessary to lecture me on the exact same factual information I just related to you.

I thought you were assuming that the Blu-Ray release had cut off parts of the image, and I figured that was what you considered "unforgiveable." Sure, CN compelling them to animate it in 4:3 ratio may have been a little bit less than ideal, but I can't comprehend calling it "unforgiveable." All the image information is there on the DVDs, nothing is missing. That's what matters to me.

 

[Maurice]

The wiki article's wrong, it wasn't computer animated - I know the guy who did it...

Then please explain this short documentary about how the briefing was done by Larry Cuba (http://www.well.com/~cuba/Biography.html). More about his work on this web page.

I was always under the impression Dan O'Bannon did it - he certainly seems to think he did

The truth appears to be that O'Bannon did some of the simulated CG animations surrounding the Death Star, and supervised the Death Star targeting display done on a Scanimate system:

O'Bannon's first task on Star Wars was to create the final section of the Death Star tactical simulation, wherein torpedoes are seen entering the shaft and descending to the core to cause a reactor explosion. For this O'Bannon made an effort to simulate Cuba's style, with white lines on black, but added his signature 'strobing' at certain points. This end section of Star Wars' one and only CGI sequence would have been an ambitious addition to the schedule, and Lucas decided that concluding it with animation was the quickest route to completing the scene.

So, Larry Cuba did everything of the "rebel briefing" up to the last shot of the fighter dropping the torpedo into the shaft: which is O'Bannon's work. O'Bannon also seems to have been responsible for the cockpit targeting scope animations, etc., which would explain the confusion.

The link to the article quoted above.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Then please explain this short documentary about how the briefing was done by Larry Cuba (http://www.well.com/~cuba/Biography.html). More about his work on this web page.

I was always under the impression Dan O'Bannon did it - he certainly seems to think he did

The truth appears to be that O'Bannon did some of the simulated CG animations surrounding the Death Star, and supervised the Death Star targeting display done on a Scanimate system:

O'Bannon's first task on Star Wars was to create the final section of the Death Star tactical simulation, wherein torpedoes are seen entering the shaft and descending to the core to cause a reactor explosion. For this O'Bannon made an effort to simulate Cuba's style, with white lines on black, but added his signature 'strobing' at certain points. This end section of Star Wars' one and only CGI sequence would have been an ambitious addition to the schedule, and Lucas decided that concluding it with animation was the quickest route to completing the scene.

So, Larry Cuba did everything of the "rebel briefing" up to the last shot of the fighter dropping the torpedo into the shaft: which is O'Bannon's work. O'Bannon also seems to have been responsible for the cockpit targeting scope animations, etc., which would explain the confusion.

The link to the article quoted above.

That would explain it - I know Dan and he wouldn't have lied, and I certainly wouldn't have implied such.

Looks like all is sorted.

I still want to write a Black Hole remake someday.

 

[milo bloom]

No, that's the way it's supposed to be. The first season of JL was actually shot in the 4:3 ratio and had the top and bottom cut off to make it widescreen, unlike the later seasons which were shot in the wider ratio. So with the first season, the 4:3 ratio is actually the full image, more than we got in its TV run. It's not pan-and-scanned. (However, the composition of the shots was designed with widescreen in mind, of course, so not much is going on at the top and bottom of the frame.)

The creators have gone on record as saying they wanted it widescreen from the start, but Cartoon Network was leery of doing a letterboxed show (afraid the kiddies would have Pokemon style seizures or something). They animated it at 4x3, but it is very clearly animated for 1.77.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. I don't know why you'd think it necessary to lecture me on the exact same factual information I just related to you.

I thought you were assuming that the Blu-Ray release had cut off parts of the image, and I figured that was what you considered "unforgiveable." Sure, CN compelling them to animate it in 4:3 ratio may have been a little bit less than ideal, but I can't comprehend calling it "unforgiveable." All the image information is there on the DVDs, nothing is missing. That's what matters to me.

Sorry, I think we were talking past each other on that point, I realize it's not a pan and scan job, but an open matte job. However, that's still my beef with it, it's all extra sky and feet. The composition and framing is for the 1.77-widescreen format and that's how I want to see season 1.

My "unforgivable" comment was regarding how they missed the opportunity to do the BluRay transfers in proper widescreen, after the DVD version was 4x3. It seriously set my enthusiasm for the Blu format back about a year.

 

[FlyingLemons]

I remember this film as a kid - the bit at the end where the robot/Reinhardt goes to Hell scared the bejesus out of me. When I was older and watched it again, I found it surprisingly mature for a Disney film, and I think it's one of the few Disney films that doesn't explicitly spell out that everything's hunky-dory at the end.

I also got it on DVD as well, but sadly the upscaling feature on my Blu-ray player is not kind to it. Is there going to be a HD release?