Disney's BLACK HOLE -- FX information?
- Thread starter Christopher
- Start date
Who doesn't like Mary Poppins!?
Here's a mind-boggling crossover for you:
Reinhardt, Maximillian, and the Cygnus encounter Colonel Ray Butts from SAAB either in hell or at the center of the Black Hole, where Butts promptly proceeds to kick Reinhardt's ass into the next continuum, all the while listening to Johnny Cash.
Reinhardt, Maximillian, and the Cygnus encounter Colonel Ray Butts from SAAB either in hell or at the center of the Black Hole, where Butts promptly proceeds to kick Reinhardt's ass into the next continuum, all the while listening to Johnny Cash.
^..while eating pancakes.
Here's a weird coincidence... last week, this thread got me remembering what I'd read a long time ago about Disney's sodium-matte process, which I hadn't heard or read anything about in many years. And just this past weekend, while channel-surfing, I happened across a portion of a documentary on TCM just at the part when they were talking about the special effects of Mary Poppins, including a discussion of the sodium-matte process!
Of course there's partly a cause-and-effect there -- if I hadn't been reminded in this thread that the technique had been used in Mary Poppins, I would've changed channels as soon as I saw the dancing penguins and I wouldn't have seen the part about the matte process. Still, it's a striking coincidence that I came across it when I did.
Of course there's partly a cause-and-effect there -- if I hadn't been reminded in this thread that the technique had been used in Mary Poppins, I would've changed channels as soon as I saw the dancing penguins and I wouldn't have seen the part about the matte process. Still, it's a striking coincidence that I came across it when I did.
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Here's what I want to know about this movie:
A lot of fans seem to think that Frank McCrae (Kate's father) was used as the AI for Maximilian. I don't recall this ever being stated in the actual film. It does make sense - Frank being the ringleader of the mutiny of the crew against Dr. Reinhardt, and then being trapped inside the robot used as an enforcer *by* Reinhardt - but they didn't say this outright in the film, did they?
A lot of fans seem to think that Frank McCrae (Kate's father) was used as the AI for Maximilian. I don't recall this ever being stated in the actual film. It does make sense - Frank being the ringleader of the mutiny of the crew against Dr. Reinhardt, and then being trapped inside the robot used as an enforcer *by* Reinhardt - but they didn't say this outright in the film, did they?
Hm, I've never heard that. I figured he was just one of the converted crew. I mean, Reinhardt wasn't putting human brains into robotic bodies, was he? I thought it was the opposite -- that he was taking human beings and lobotomizing them, turning them into drones that were mindless but still biologically human. And Maximillian was clearly not a humanoid.
Besides, we know that sentient AIs exist in this universe, as proven by the existence of V.I.N.CENT and old B.O.B. There was never any indication that they had human brains inside them. So I see no reason to assume that Maximillian needed to have a human brain animating him.
Here's another: The Cygus doesn't collide with a meteoroid while on the edge of the black hole; it collides with the Andromeda Ascendant.
It explains several things about the movie though Reinhardt tells Kate to save him from Maximillian after Alex's death and at the end of the movie Reinhardt's trapped inside of of Maximillian and Kate's father's spirit goes to heaven in a taken straight from Fantasia.
The film not using bluescreen gave The Black Hole quite a distinctive look, I thought. It also had a lot of matte paintings, going back to the Hitchcockian approach of "is a painting cheaper than a set for this shot? Then paint it!" rather than "ooh, paintings are reserved for spectacular vistas", and even its animated laser effects looked different from the Star Wars norm because of the bright neon glows. It was a movie that took the trouble to create its own unique visual feel.
The wirework is also pretty damn impressive. The wires are visible on the robots in literally just a handful of shots, and then only if you're really looking for them.
Of course, now the robots would just be CGI comped in with the actors, which takes a lot of the fun out of it. That's one of the reasons why Cinefex has become an occasional rather than essential purchase for me; guys staring at computer monitors are a lot less interesting to read about than crazed geniuses building insanely detailed little models and pushing lenses and film stock beyond their limits.
The wirework is also pretty damn impressive. The wires are visible on the robots in literally just a handful of shots, and then only if you're really looking for them.
Of course, now the robots would just be CGI comped in with the actors, which takes a lot of the fun out of it. That's one of the reasons why Cinefex has become an occasional rather than essential purchase for me; guys staring at computer monitors are a lot less interesting to read about than crazed geniuses building insanely detailed little models and pushing lenses and film stock beyond their limits.
Err, we've established that the film did use bluescreen. The Art Cruikshank interview linked above stated that it did.
But I'll agree, there was something about its bluescreen work that looked different -- better -- than a lot of bluescreen work I've seen.
With Harrison Ellenshaw supervising, it's not surprising it was heavy on matte paintings. But they also used a lot of larger-scale miniatures for close-ups on portions of the Cygnus.
I think the FX animation has kind of a "cartoon" look to it, analogous to the Forbidden Planet id-creature animation which was done by Disney animators. And I don't mean that as a criticism. It was distinctive.
Not necessarily. A lot of filmmakers still appreciate the value of miniatures and animatronics. For instance, a great many of the robots in the upcoming Terminator: Salvation are animatronics built by Stan Winston's studio (it was the last film Winston worked on before his death). And R2D2 was a real radio-controlled mechanical prop in much of the Star Wars prequel trilogy (and Mythbusters' Grant Imahara was one of his three authorized operators). Generally the preferred technique in feature films is to use animatronics when you can and CGI when you have to.
I just wanted to add my appreciation for this film. I remember watching it as a wee tike in the theatre, I even had a Maximillian action figure at one point. I've bought the DVD twice, the original one from Anchor Bay and the 16x9 reissue from Disney, and I always make sure to play the entrance music when we give it a spin around the house. And I've caught the score on XM's Cinemagic more than once on the way to work, always seems to give the day a little better start than usual 
Of course those guys staring at computer monitors are generally just as crazed and doing things just as insanely detailed...
Type "The Black Hole Barry" into the search field for the iTunes store. You can buy the album there.
I bought the Anchor Bay disc years ago, one of my earlier DVD purchases. I seem to remember reading that when the anamorphic version came out, people insisted that the Anchor Bay version looked better. I can confirm that the Anchor Bay disc looks pretty good, even zoomed on an HDTV.
Since you have both, perhaps you can give a sense of which one you prefer?
Harry
This thread has inspired me to watch the movie again, I normally watch it around Christmas time since that's when it came out and I did see it before Christmas but I decided to see it again.
And I still love the movie Reinhardt has a Nemo vide about him and I've alway liked John Barry's score and it still has a few Disney touches and despite it's flaws it's still got great visual effects and it's alot of fun to watch. And in a way it relives a part of my early teenage years when I first saw it in the theater and I saw it twice back then.
And I still love the movie Reinhardt has a Nemo vide about him and I've alway liked John Barry's score and it still has a few Disney touches and despite it's flaws it's still got great visual effects and it's alot of fun to watch. And in a way it relives a part of my early teenage years when I first saw it in the theater and I saw it twice back then.
Robert Abel and Associates did the opening credits with the vector animation of the black hole...other than that I know (as pointed out in the original post) that Harrison Ellenshaw was the effects supervisor on the film.
I still have the Starlog issue around somewhere in my collection...
I hated the musical score...aside from the main title. I never was a John Barry fan though, so I'm admittedly a little biased. I also hated the production design...those Vader-bots were horrendous and the Slim Pickens bot got on my nerves bigtime.
I still have the Starlog issue around somewhere in my collection...
I hated the musical score...aside from the main title. I never was a John Barry fan though, so I'm admittedly a little biased. I also hated the production design...those Vader-bots were horrendous and the Slim Pickens bot got on my nerves bigtime.
Hey, here we go... I've serendipitously found a reference stating that the sodium-matte process was used in The Black Hole after all. It also confirms what I recall reading about the uniqueness of the equipment that was used for it. It's a page listing the "Top 50 movie special effects shots," and the entry is way down at #6, The Birds:
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/177951/top_50_movie_special_effects_shots.html
Offhand, I'd say that the "window" shots I was so impressed by, with the ship, black hole, and starscape visible through the windows with the actors moving in front of them, were most likely done with sodium mattes, explaining the lack of matte lines. Come to think of it, I suppose the reason the Art Cruikshank interview only mentions bluescreens is because he was discussing the miniature effects rather than on-set composites such as the window shots. Given what I've seen and read about the sodium vapor process, it stands to reason that it would've been used for those kinds of shots, with actors moving in front of the "yellow screen," as in Mary Poppins.
So that's reassuring. I was sure when I saw those shots that they couldn't be bluescreen, because they were just too free of matte lines. I could've sworn I'd never seen bluescreen work that looked quite like that. I was afraid I was losing my eye for detail.
It's a shame it wasn't feasible to use sodium mattes more often. What I recall is that the beam-splitter prism just sort of happened by accident to be able to split off that particular wavelength, and nobody ever figured out how to make another one that could do the same. That's both amazingly cool and rather sad.
And my discovering this is more of that weird synchronicity. For years, I never saw or read anything about the sodium vapor process and wasn't even sure I remembered its existence. Then, a week after I started this thread wondering about it, I happened across a TV documentary that talked about it, and now a week after that, I happened across a website that talked about it. It's weird the way the universe seems to work sometimes.
http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/177951/top_50_movie_special_effects_shots.html
Offhand, I'd say that the "window" shots I was so impressed by, with the ship, black hole, and starscape visible through the windows with the actors moving in front of them, were most likely done with sodium mattes, explaining the lack of matte lines. Come to think of it, I suppose the reason the Art Cruikshank interview only mentions bluescreens is because he was discussing the miniature effects rather than on-set composites such as the window shots. Given what I've seen and read about the sodium vapor process, it stands to reason that it would've been used for those kinds of shots, with actors moving in front of the "yellow screen," as in Mary Poppins.
So that's reassuring. I was sure when I saw those shots that they couldn't be bluescreen, because they were just too free of matte lines. I could've sworn I'd never seen bluescreen work that looked quite like that. I was afraid I was losing my eye for detail.
It's a shame it wasn't feasible to use sodium mattes more often. What I recall is that the beam-splitter prism just sort of happened by accident to be able to split off that particular wavelength, and nobody ever figured out how to make another one that could do the same. That's both amazingly cool and rather sad.
And my discovering this is more of that weird synchronicity. For years, I never saw or read anything about the sodium vapor process and wasn't even sure I remembered its existence. Then, a week after I started this thread wondering about it, I happened across a TV documentary that talked about it, and now a week after that, I happened across a website that talked about it. It's weird the way the universe seems to work sometimes.
I had never seen the Jodie Foster Freaky Friday as a kid and it came up on one of the movie channels the other night (the same one with the Disney Live-Action piece you mentioned Christopher) and I gotta say, that was some of the WORST rear-projection composite work EVAR! 
It was funny seeing a mid-teen Charlene Tilton as well.
It was funny seeing a mid-teen Charlene Tilton as well.