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Disney/Lucasfilm de-canonized all their Star Wars novels

If this had happened in the nineties when there were still decent sw books coming out, I might have felt mildly disappointed, but I checked out during all the Vong rubbish.

Would be cool if the new movies use Thrawn in some way, otherwise this news leaves me fairly apathetic.
 
Yeah, I probably should clarify that I'm referring to the adult novels, not the comics or youth oriented books. I'm well aware that many of the Marvel comics weren't canon and that they've tried to patch up stuff with "retcons".

There is no difference. The SW comics were no more "youth-oriented" than the novels; heck, all of Star Wars is meant to be family-friendly, an homage to the children's adventure serials Lucas loved as a boy. And, more fundamentally, age range has nothing to do with the intrinsic fact that tie-ins are not canon. It's got nothing to do with maturity, it's got to do with the simple logic of how subsidiary materials relate to the core material, whether in terms of profit potential or audience awareness or the simple right of the actual owners of the property to make their own choices about how to tell the story rather than be held hostage to the decisions of outsiders who are simply borrowing their ideas in the first place.

Look -- I write tie-ins for a living. And I would never tell the actual owners of the Star Trek franchise that they should be expected to follow my lead, because that would be petty and obnoxious and ungrateful. I'm a guest in their house and they've graciously allowed me to play with their toys. But the toys still belong to them, and they're only letting me use them as a courtesy, and it's my obligation as a visitor to abide by their house rules. Now, if I'd gone to play in Lucasfilm's house, they would've been gracious enough to say "Sure, you can play along right beside me and it'll all be one big story," and that would've been nice, though maybe a bit restrictive for me. But if they then had an idea for what to do with their toys that required disassembling what I'd built, then that would still be their absolute and undeniable right, because the toys are still entirely theirs. If I want to have things my own way, then I can go home and play with my own toys. Then I'm dealing with my own property and have total control over my possessions. But by the same token, I respect the other guys' right to have total control over their possessions.

This is the mistake in assuming that the SW books and comics exist on an equal level to the movies and TV shows. They fundamentally do not. They are produced by different companies under license from the franchise owner, they're made by different people and are read by a fraction of the audience. They only exist with the indulgence of the owner. Just because they have the owner's approval does not mean they exist on an equal level with the core material. And, despite my toy-based metaphors, that has absolutely nothing to do with the age range of the material or the medium it's published in. It's just the way tie-ins work.



The bottom line is: I haven't read many of the Star Wars books, but I've read a good amount and I'm disappointed that after investing time and money on them (mainly due to the notion that they were canon) that they've now decided it isn't.

But does that really strip away their value as stories? Why should their consistency with the source be the only standard of merit? Did you think you were studying for some upcoming exam on Star Wars history and needed to get a good grade? Or were you reading these books for enjoyment? And if the stories were enjoyable in their own right, does it matter whether they're consistent with other stories?



Christopher, you seem to be making an argument that they were never canon, but quite frankly, that was not what I felt Lucasfilm led me to believe.

Yes, that's what I've been saying all along: That Lucasfilm's representation of its tie-ins as canonical material was deceptive. I don't think they deliberately defrauded the audience, but I think they misunderstood how canon worked and what its ramifications were and thereby promised the audience more than they could deliver. We've seen this happen in other franchises. The original Dell Babylon 5 novels were meant to be canonical, but it proved impossible to keep them consistent with a show that was in production at the time, and so they were retroactively declared non-canonical. Jeri Taylor considered her Voyager novels canonical, but once she was out as the showrunner, her successors ignored her books. Anything declared as "secondary" canon like tie-in books or comics is subject to the risk of being overwritten -- exactly the same as any overtly non-canonical tie-ins.


I'm sensing a defensiveness in some of the responses I've been getting from some of you guys (not sure why since I'm not picking a fight or trying to piss people off), but I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I can't help how I feel about the situation.

No defensiveness, just experience. The Star Trek tie-in community has been through all this before, more than once.
 
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I just don't see why the EU has to be dumped. (Although I am glad Chewbacca is going to be in the film...)

You hit the bull's eye right there. If they adhere to the EU, Chewie's dead and can't be in the movie. Ignore the EU, and he's alive and can be in the movie. Presumably there are other elements from the movies that might contradict the EU were they included in the new movies, therefore the EU gets dumped.
 
Well I don't know about everyone else, but I'm glad that Jacen Solo becoming Darth Caedus is being dumped.

Yeah, there are story elements I'm sorry to see go-- like Thrawn, like the New Jedi Order-- but on the other hand, I'm happy to lose Legacy of the Force and everything written by Kevin J. Anderson.
 
The thing is, they can always reintroduce those elements they like back into the canon by putting them on screen. Either in Rebels, or one of the film projects, or another TV project.

The authors will do what they do, and with Star Wars, they tend to pick and choose from the older EU while also making their new stuff. They rewrite it to suit their needs, but the character or thing gets in there.

The Z-95 Headhunter for example is now canon via the Clone Wars. Yet the Victory Star Destroyer is not as of yet canon, or was replaced by the Vindicator Star Destroyer in the canon.
 
Look -- I write tie-ins for a living.

I know I own some of your books.

And I would never tell the actual owners of the Star Trek franchise that they should be expected to follow my lead, because that would be petty and obnoxious and ungrateful. I'm a guest in their house and they've graciously allowed me to play with their toys. But the toys still belong to them, and they're only letting me use them as a courtesy, and it's my obligation as a visitor to abide by their house rules. Now, if I'd gone to play in Lucasfilm's house, they would've been gracious enough to say "Sure, you can play along right beside me and it'll all be one big story," and that would've been nice, though maybe a bit restrictive for me. But if they then had an idea for what to do with their toys that required disassembling what I'd built, then that would still be their absolute and undeniable right, because the toys are still entirely theirs. If I want to have things my own way, then I can go home and play with my own toys. Then I'm dealing with my own property and have total control over my possessions. But by the same token, I respect the other guys' right to have total control over their possessions.

You're overthinking my post. Nobody is saying anything about playing in the sandbox. I'm simply stating that I feel misled as a fan and consumer and I feel that my being pissed at being misled is justified.

This is the mistake in assuming that the SW books and comics exist on an equal level to the movies and TV shows. They fundamentally do not. They are produced by different companies under license from the franchise owner, they're made by different people and are read by a fraction of the audience. They only exist with the indulgence of the owner. Just because they have the owner's approval does not mean they exist on an equal level with the core material. And, despite my toy-based metaphors, that has absolutely nothing to do with the age range of the material or the medium it's published in. It's just the way tie-ins work.

Yeah, but that's not what Lucasfilm had us believe.



But does that really strip away their value as stories? Why should their consistency with the source be the only standard of merit? Did you think you were studying for some upcoming exam on Star Wars history and needed to get a good grade? Or were you reading these books for enjoyment? And if the stories were enjoyable in their own right, does it matter whether they're consistent with other stories?

I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.



Yes, that's what I've been saying all along: That Lucasfilm's representation of its tie-ins as canonical material was deceptive.

Ding! Ding! Ding! That's exactly why I was not pleased.

No defensiveness, just experience. The Star Trek tie-in community has been through all this before, more than once.

I've been reading Star Trek books since the late 1980s. So I have my share of experience with franchise tie-ins.

But it was always apparent that these books weren't canon.

I wasn't too interested in the Star Wars books because I was really interested in the movies, but I bought into the EU because they were being treated as canon *AND* what some of us are forgetting is that there was never going to be a sequel trilogy of Star Wars films, so these were the closest we would get to the further adventures of Han, Luke, and Leia.

And now that feeling that you were reading "legitimately canon" stories "approved by Lucasfilm" is meaningless.

Nobody is talking about the writer's work, or the quality of the stories. That's never been my issue. It's the deception that makes me feel cheated.

Hence, I'm not pleased at the deception. And justifiably so.
 
I'm just saying, caveat emptor. I don't get why you're reacting to the non-canon status of the SW novels as if it were something that had just now happened. As I've said, new Star Wars screen productions have been ignoring elements of the tie-ins for a long time now. It continues to bewilder me when I see SW fans reacting to this as if it were unprecedented. Didn't you notice it when the prequels ignored and contradicted a bunch of stuff from the books? Or when The Clone Wars ignored the novels' version of Mandalore? Given that those things already happened years ago, already proved that the books weren't as "canonical" as Lucasfilm claimed, why is this news to you now?
 
In all fairness, Christopher, there is a big difference between "some pieces of this continuity are overwritten" and "all these ongoing stories you've followed for decades are over and there won't be any new stories coming from them at all". A matter of degree rather than philosophy, to be sure, but I don't believe it's inconsistent to have been ok with some Clone Wars retcons and be pissed about this.

Largely, I agree with you, though; I certainly was not at all surprised when this occurred.
 
Of course, when it was "decided" that the EU would be canon, there were no plans to make more Star Wars films at all. And even if Lucas did decide to make more (which he did about ten years after the first of the new wave of EU books started coming out) they would be prequels, which if I recall, the authors of the new EU novels were mostly told to avoid when possible. No one in 1987 (aside maybe Lucas at best) had any idea that there would ever be sequel after Return of the Jedi, so the idea of the EU being "canon" was accepted as there was no reason to ignore it. Especially early on when the authors all seemed to be coordinating somewhat in the New Republic era. At least for the first five years or so. Maybe at far at ten years. But after a while things drifted. Then the remastered Star Wars came out, then the Prequels, and things shifted...a lot.
 
I'm honestly kind of shocked that anyone is surprised by the EU being dumped. There was no way they were every going to actually keep all of that for the movies.
As for the EU material being "canon", I'd always assumed that that was just their way of trying to keep all of the books, games, comics, ect. consistent with each other, and didn't necisarily mean that the movies and TV shows would be consistent with them.
 
In all fairness, Christopher, there is a big difference between "some pieces of this continuity are overwritten" and "all these ongoing stories you've followed for decades are over and there won't be any new stories coming from them at all". A matter of degree rather than philosophy, to be sure, but I don't believe it's inconsistent to have been ok with some Clone Wars retcons and be pissed about this.

Largely, I agree with you, though; I certainly was not at all surprised when this occurred.

But the point is, those past instances proved that the books were not as canonical as Lucasfilm claimed -- that no matter what they said, their actions painted a different picture. So I don't get how someone in 2014 could have such absolute, blind faith in what Lucasfilm said that they were taken by surprise by their actions.
 
When something is declared non-canon, does that magically change the content of the stories you had enjoyed? If not, then why give a crud?
 
I'm just saying, caveat emptor. I don't get why you're reacting to the non-canon status of the SW novels as if it were something that had just now happened. As I've said, new Star Wars screen productions have been ignoring elements of the tie-ins for a long time now. It continues to bewilder me when I see SW fans reacting to this as if it were unprecedented. Didn't you notice it when the prequels ignored and contradicted a bunch of stuff from the books? Or when The Clone Wars ignored the novels' version of Mandalore? Given that those things already happened years ago, already proved that the books weren't as "canonical" as Lucasfilm claimed, why is this news to you now?

It's new to me because:

1) While I consider myself a diehard fan, I'm a fan that just doesn't have the same time I used to devote to hobbies

2) I've read a ton of the Star Wars books, but I guess I don't retain every minor detail of every book.

3) I haven't seen many of The Clone Wars cartoons.

4) The last thing I heard, EU was canon and the contradictions were the results of mistakes, oversights, or the fact that some SW incarnations---comics, children's books, non-adult novel---were part of the Infinities type line which is definitely non-canon, or a Star Warsian version of "What if?" type storylines, which I never bothered with because I really wanted to read the canon stuff.

5) And above all, there was never supposed to be a sequel trilogy. On top of Lucasfilm's deception that the EU was canon, we were told that this would be the only canon way of finding out what happened to Luke, Leia and Han.
 
When the people who said that the books were the only way to find out what happened after RotJ, they did honestly believe that. It's not their fault that the PTB at Disney and Lucasfilm decided to make a new movie series.
At the same time, those same PTB shouldn't have been prevented from making a movie series that millions of people will see because of a bunch books, comics, and video games exists that a few thousand people read/play.
People can say something is canon all they want when there is nothing around to contradict it, but you have to accept that that is going to change if something else comes along that has a higher prioity for the people in charge of the franchise. You can't honestly expect the people who make the primary material for the franchise to allow themselves to be limited by what happened in the secondary material.
I think it's also worth keeping in mind just how much EU material there is now. It would be really hard to try to use all of that material and still keep things accessible to people who only watch the movies.
 
4) The last thing I heard, EU was canon and the contradictions were the results of mistakes, oversights, or the fact that some SW incarnations---comics, children's books, non-adult novel---were part of the Infinities type line which is definitely non-canon, or a Star Warsian version of "What if?" type storylines, which I never bothered with because I really wanted to read the canon stuff.

"Mistakes?" How is it a "mistake" if a canonical film chooses to develop the universe in a way that differs from the tie-ins, as the prequel films did with a number of things? That's not a mistake, it's a choice to override a subsidiary text. And I think you're overlooking the fact that a lot of books that were originally intended to be "canon" were retroactively labeled as non-canon once the movies contradicted them. Meanwhile, your continued insistence on believing that there's some kind of difference between the canon status of the adult novels and the other tie-ins is completely out of touch with reality. I don't think even Lucasfilm ever claimed that. (And really, you're lumping comics together with children's books? What a quaint and antiquated idea that is. It's been a long time since children were the target audience for most comics.)


5) And above all, there was never supposed to be a sequel trilogy.

Of course there was. For many years, almost from the time Lucas started adding "Episode" numbers to the films, the word from Lucas was that his long-term plan was to do three trilogies, starting with the middle one, then going back to the first three and finally doing the last three. When Lucas finally got around to making the prequels, the expectation throughout fandom was that he'd follow them up with the sequel trilogy and finally complete the 9-part story he'd been promising since the early '80s. It wasn't until after the prequel trilogy was done that Lucas declared he had no intention of doing Episodes 7-9, because -- in his constant reinvention of history -- he was now claiming that Star Wars had "always" been the story of Anakin Skywalker.

It sounds to me like you must've come into SW fandom rather recently, after the prequels came out, and thus were unaware of a lot of this history. So you bought into the myth that the version of the EU you were seeing was exactly the way it was always intended to be, when in fact it was a patchwork of retcons and rationalizations for all the inconsistencies that had cropped up in earlier years.
 
"Mistakes?" How is it a "mistake" if a canonical film chooses to develop the universe in a way that differs from the tie-ins, as the prequel films did with a number of things?

Ask Lucasfilm.

Meanwhile, your continued insistence on believing that there's some kind of difference between the canon status of the adult novels and the other tie-ins is completely out of touch with reality. I don't think even Lucasfilm ever claimed that. (And really, you're lumping comics together with children's books? What a quaint and antiquated idea that is. It's been a long time since children were the target audience for most comics.)

You seem to like to make assumptions about me. When I mentioned comics and children's books, I meant it as two separate entities. Again, you're overanalyzing what's meant to be a casual converastion.



Of course there was. For many years, almost from the time Lucas started adding "Episode" numbers to the films, the word from Lucas was that his long-term plan was to do three trilogies, starting with the middle one, then going back to the first three and finally doing the last three. When Lucas finally got around to making the prequels, the expectation throughout fandom was that he'd follow them up with the sequel trilogy and finally complete the 9-part story he'd been promising since the early '80s. It wasn't until after the prequel trilogy was done that Lucas declared he had no intention of doing Episodes 7-9, because -- in his constant reinvention of history -- he was now claiming that Star Wars had "always" been the story of Anakin Skywalker.

As I recall, a sequel trilogy was never a sure thing, and by the prequel trilogy, was written out.

It sounds to me like you must've come into SW fandom rather recently, after the prequels came out, and thus were unaware of a lot of this history. So you bought into the myth that the version of the EU you were seeing was exactly the way it was always intended to be, when in fact it was a patchwork of retcons and rationalizations for all the inconsistencies that had cropped up in earlier years.

Again, you're making assumptions about me.

I've been a Star Wars fan since I was 3 years old, (I'm 38). You also seem privy to information that somehow eluded, because this is the first time I hear that a sequel trilogy was a definite.

I'm old enough to remember watching ROTJ twice in theaters back in '83, watching SW specials, and reading them.

There was TALK about a sequel trilogy, but it was never a sure thing.
 
I remember talk of a sequel trilogy around the time of Return of the Jedi. I also remember that is was generally considered to be something that would never get made by the time the Thrawn Trilogy was being written. There were doubts if the prequel trilogy would be made at that point in time, but it was considered a possible thing. The sequels were considered an impossible thing by 1991 standards.

It would take just over 20 years for the impossible to become reality. But for at least the first ten years of that...there was no reason, at all, to consider the novels to be anything other than the continuing adventures of the Heroes of Yavin. After that point things started to waver around a lot. The authors seemed to communicate less with each other. More inconsistency started to happen. The films were remastered with new scenes. Then the Prequels happened, and everything changed...sort of.

I remember someone who hated the Prequels simply for what they made Boba Fett. Not the nature of him as a clone, or his backstory changes, but that he was played by a Maori actor. I think she was smitten with the idea of a white guy in the suit, and the change turned her off. I don't think she ever saw Revenge of the Sith. She was just done with Lucas.
 
Whatever "canon policy" Lucasfilm used on their novels, George himself never considered them canon, and when the EU began, he says it was based on Trek's template.

I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

I can get feeling annoyed, especially if there are plot threads left dangling (I have no idea if there are, I've never read SW books) but the novels and their universe shouldn't be diminished in any way by contradictions in a forthcoming movie.
 
Okay, maybe the sequels were not a sure thing, but clearly they were under consideration at some point. So it's an exaggeration to say that they were "never supposed to" be made at all. "Never" is far too absolute a word, and that's what I objected to.
 
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