Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[Mriana]

Ah, but some people cannot deal with a president who is 1/2 Black and 1/2 White. Obama is not Black. He is not White. He is both. I know this because I am a mother, a White mother, of two biracial sons, much like Obama, father's nationality not included. I wouldn't go there, because I've kept up with that crap and I don't like what I see and it is a subject I know all to well.

 

[Monty]

Oh good God almighty.

1) Name all the Star Trek books you've read that've been published in the last 6 years. Shockingly: MANY of them are about female captains! Female captaincy IS being explored, in at least three different ongoing series!

2) What on Earth does Hollywood politics have to do with novel writers?

3) Sisko was killed off.

4) I, personally, in no way want cartoonish boobs, and I resent the implication that I do.

5) If Hillary had beaten Obama, do you think people would've been justified in saying "America can deal with a woman president, but clearly not an African American one!"? One of them had to lose, you know.

1) Read Brit again: WOMEN ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

2) Read my post clearly; the books are a way to remedy what Hollywood did with the characters. Books have the freedom to take more risks than movies or television do.

3) My first paragraph is a disclaimer that you obviously didn't read. Again, if this thread was about Sisko being killed off, I doubt I'd feel it was right to slam him within it the way others like yourself seem okay with. Or maybe you don't care either way what happens to Janeway the Character, it certainly seems that way. So why bother; you don't care enough. Isn't that nice.

4) Did I name you in my reply? Then why do you think of yourself in that set?

5) Since there was an African American Starfleet captain (who is a main character - not some nameless supporting captain) and a female one existing at the same time, why kill either one, when Picard is so much older? Do you see why any debate with anyone who cares more about the character than you is pointless?

Good God almighty, indeed.

 

[William Leisner]

elaithin, have you ever taken a writing class? First rule- consider your audience.

I have taken several college-level writing classes. And I have been published professionally, which is an education all by itself.

And there is no such rule, "consider your audience". Whatever writing instructor told you that is full of shit.

Because the Editors are in the business of making money, they want to publish what will sell, and if all they see is the posts that say "they should have killed Janeway and Kept Ransom as Voyager's Captain" how are they going to put any value on her as a character.

You know those SF stories that suppose aliens will try to learn about Earth by watching our TV transmissions, and when they start interacting with humans, they start spouting silly television cliches? Well, even that is more realistic than the idea that writers or editors would troll the internet trying to determine some kind of fan concensus based on what a handful of anonymous keyboard monkeys are typing at the moment. I mean, come on, seriously...

 

[Thrawn]

1) Read Brit again: WOMEN ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

2) Read my post clearly; the books are a way to remedy what Hollywood did with the characters. Books have the freedom to take more risks than movies or television do.

3) My first paragraph is a disclaimer that you obviously didn't read. Again, if this thread was about Sisko being killed off, I doubt I'd feel it was right to slam him within it the way others like yourself seem okay with. Or maybe you don't care either way what happens to Janeway the Character, it certainly seems that way. So why bother; you don't care enough. Isn't that nice.

4) Did I name you in my reply? Then why do you think of yourself in that set?

5) Since there was an African American Starfleet captain (who is a main character - not some nameless supporting captain) and a female one existing at the same time, why kill either one, when Picard is so much older? Do you see why any debate with anyone who cares more about the character than you is pointless?

Good God almighty, indeed.

1) You can't have it both ways. Either you want to read an exploration of (your words) "female captaincy" in general, or you want to read about Janeway in particular.

2) Fact; I withdraw the objection.

3) I loved Janeway, deeply cared what happened to her, and actually felt her death was a perfect sendoff to the character. Why does that, by default, make me like her less than you?

4) Again, I withdraw the objection. Just please don't conflate "people who like Janeway's death" with "men who only want tits". It's insulting.

5) Because those were the stories they wanted to tell. It's not like there were five interchangeable people, except one happened to be female, and they went "ok, let's fuck over THAT one!" Janeway was picked specifically to tell a certain story with the leftover characters, and we haven't seen that story yet, so we actually don't know why. Pretty hard to have an argument over something we don't know yet.

 

[Brit]

Well, even that is more realistic than the idea that writers or editors would troll the internet trying to determine some kind of fan concensus based on what a handful of anonymous keyboard monkeys are typing at the moment. I mean, come on, seriously...

Authors post in this forum. That in itself shows influence. And its time the influence was shared.

Brit

 

[LightningStorm]

Psst. William Leisner is one such author.

 

[trekkerguy]

Wait, they finaly killed Janeway?!?!

 

[CoriM]

Psst. William Leisner is one such author.

Then why is he saying authors don't care if he's here.

 

[Monty]

1) You can't have it both ways. Either you want to read an exploration of (your words) "female captaincy" in general, or you want to read about Janeway in particular.

2) Fact; I withdraw the objection.

3) I loved Janeway, deeply cared what happened to her, and actually felt her death was a perfect sendoff to the character. Why does that, by default, make me like her less than you?

4) Again, I withdraw the objection. Just please don't conflate "people who like Janeway's death" with "men who only want tits". It's insulting.

5) Because those were the stories they wanted to tell. It's not like there were five interchangeable people, except one happened to be female, and they went "ok, let's fuck over THAT one!" Janeway was picked specifically to tell a certain story with the leftover characters, and we haven't seen that story yet, so we actually don't know why. Pretty hard to have an argument over something we don't know yet.

1) Yep. I want Janeway; I think it's clear (unless you are purposely being obtuse) that the people who are against you WANT JANEWAY PERIOD. WOMEN ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. I'll stop typing in all caps until you get that.

3) So you liked the way she died. Some people didn't. Does that mean that the people who didn't like the way she died somehow are lesser than you or have a less valuable opinion than yours? If not, what the hell are you fighting us about? The quality of the books? Well, then you're in the wrong thread. This has become about people who DON'T like her dead and thus OBVIOUSLY the way she died. Tuvok would understand that logic.

4) I didn't make this specific connection; you did. Nice straw man, though. Not falling for it.

5) You are assuming that she will be brought back. From the way she was treated by the writers of the show, forgive me, but I'm a lot more skeptical than you are. We can heartily agree to disagree about the future.

 

[Brit]

Sisko was revived, only instead of resuming command, he flew down to Bajor to raise kids. (And just IMAGINE the hell you all would raise if they had Janeway do the same thing.)

Actually some women would love it. There is a whole subgenre of fan fiction called "Baby Fic" is it a mirror of romance fiction's baby fic. It has a very viable following.

If you had Janeway having babies, my daughter would buy the books store out.

Brit

 

[Thrawn]

Monty, chill, please. I'm not saying you or your opinions are lesser or less valuable, I'm simply saying I disagree, and I'm fighting you because of that fact alone, and discussions over things like this are why messageboards exist in the first place.

By your Tuvok logic, I'm not allowed to disagree with you in this thread? Why? You only want to read posts you agree with?

And no, I'm not assuming she'll be brought back. What made you think so?

And finally, here's my problem with the whole "women aren't interchangeable" argument. I agree with you; they aren't, not any more than any two characters of any gender would be. But you act as though killing Janeway was an attack on all woman-kind instigated by men who are terrified of or just generally dislike strong women in general, and this is patently false because there are many others.

You may dislike Janeway's treatment, but I think at absolute worst it's an attack on Janeway herself, not an attack on Women.

If not, then what you're saying is "it's ok to kill the male captains, but you can't kill the female ones", and it makes me wonder what other special treatment of women you demand.

 

[Thrawn]

Sisko was revived, only instead of resuming command, he flew down to Bajor to raise kids. (And just IMAGINE the hell you all would raise if they had Janeway do the same thing.)

Actually some women would love it. There is a whole subgenre of fan fiction called "Baby Fic" is it a mirror of romance fiction's baby fic. It has a very viable following.

If you had Janeway having babies, my daughter would buy the books store out.

Brit

Fair enough; that was snarky, and I apologize.

 

[Trent Roman]

Ignoring, and justly so, the ludicrous accusations of misogyny, this:

If you take them as true deaths, though, there is one difference. Neither Kirk nor Sisko, were vilified before their leaving. Janeway was.

...I must agree with. Kirk and Sisko 'died' (I don't agree that Sisko died, either) well, heroically even. Janeway was eaten by the floor while Lady Q stood by and mocked her. Her body was hijacked by the Queen and her psyche cannibalized by the Collective. She was, not to put too fine a point on it, violated to death. And the characterization of Janeway up until that point seemed to be mired in the embittered extreme of her character as seen in episodes like "Night". Or the idea that the character had, somehow, fulfilled its purpose and could be best retasked by dying. And then there was String Theory 3, which decided that Janeway's actions were not the result of a complex character, but because she had brain damage... All told, I can certainly understand, even as I do not agree with, the impression some people have received that the character is disliked by whatever powers that be.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[CoriM]

We'd like equal treatment Thrawn, not special and I really hate how minorities are always seen as wanting something extra. We don't, we want to be, equally seen, equallly heard, and equally served, especially considering Trek principals.

 

[Thrawn]

We'd like equal treatment Thrawn, not special and I really hate how minorities are always seen as wanting something extra. We don't, we want to be, equally seen, equallly heard, and equally served, especially considering Trek principals.

Then please explain to me exactly how this is unequal treatment.

Kirk was killed, but there was the Nexus to bring him back if someone wanted to.
Sisko was killed, but similarly able to return if someone wanted to write it.
Janeway was killed, but with an ending that made her return possible if someone wanted to write it.

Yes, the particular book in which she died is a controversial one and many feel that her death scenes were written badly, but for that matter I think Kirk's death scenes were pretty lame too, and he actually died in the midst of a story of another series entirely also.

But either way the execution of her death and the fact of her death are two separate things. I first must ask if you genuinely feel Janeway dying, on the face of it, is a sexist act by the writers.

 

[Monty]

Monty, chill, please. I'm not saying you or your opinions are lesser or less valuable, I'm simply saying I disagree, and I'm fighting you because of that fact alone, and discussions over things like this are why messageboards exist in the first place.

By your Tuvok logic, I'm not allowed to disagree with you in this thread? Why? You only want to read posts you agree with?

And no, I'm not assuming she'll be brought back. What made you think so?

And finally, here's my problem with the whole "women aren't interchangeable" argument. I agree with you; they aren't, not any more than any two characters of any gender would be. But you act as though killing Janeway was an attack on all woman-kind instigated by men who are terrified of or just generally dislike strong women in general, and this is patently false because there are many others.

You may dislike Janeway's treatment, but I think at absolute worst it's an attack on Janeway herself, not an attack on Women.

If not, then what you're saying is "it's ok to kill the male captains, but you can't kill the female ones", and it makes me wonder what other special treatment of women you demand.

There's so much backpedaling here, it's ridiculous. And mixed with so much Straw Men, they're basically reproducing like tribbles. I've read your posts in this thread. You have pulled out the idea that Janeway will probably come back, and now you're taking that back? Oh-kay.

And your biggest Straw Man to date: that I think killing Janeway is "an attack on all woman-kind instigated by men who are terrified of or just generally dislike strong women in general" LOL. I work in the entertainment business. It is a fact that women are still having a tough time having strong roles written for them. Hollywood being a Good Ol' Boys Club is fact. Janeway was created in Hollywood before she was taken to the literary world. Misogynism exists. It is fact. Your refusal to take any of that into account doesn't interest me. And that's not because I have no tolerance for differing points of view, but like you, the quality of the argument is what interests me. I don't see that here so far. I posted my angle regarding the feminism in case no one had the guts to bring it up.

And your last line is a supposition with no connection to anything I've posted; it's just puerile.

 

[William Leisner]

Psst. William Leisner is one such author.

Then why is he saying authors don't care if he's here.

Because they don't.

Yo, Dayton! Keith! Mack! Bennett! Any of you give a shit about me or what I think?

 

[CoriM]

We'd like equal treatment Thrawn, not special and I really hate how minorities are always seen as wanting something extra. We don't, we want to be, equally seen, equallly heard, and equally served, especially considering Trek principals.

Then please explain to me exactly how this is unequal treatment.

Kirk was killed, but there was the Nexus to bring him back if someone wanted to.
Sisko was killed, but similarly able to return if someone wanted to write it.
Janeway was killed, but with an ending that made her return possible if someone wanted to write it.

Yes, the particular book in which she died is a controversial one and many feel that her death scenes were written badly, but for that matter I think Kirk's death scenes were pretty lame too, and he actually died in the midst of a story of another series entirely also.

But either way the execution of her death and the fact of her death are two separate things. I first must ask if you genuinely feel Janeway dying, on the face of it, is a sexist act by the writers.

It's unequal because of the glee and venom which which it is discussed and pronounced here. Not by you, but others, and because of the way Janeway was dishonored as a character in her death. Something I know you don't agree with.

And yes I do think it was sexist, heavily influenced by the sexism and/or dislike in the fandom toward Janeway.

 

[JD]

Ok, I just want to start off by pointing out that I have no problem with Janeway whatsoever, and yes, I am sad that she is dead, and no I have no problems with women.
But, my god, it drives me crazy how everytime a bad thing happens to a women in fiction of any form, people then have to start calling the ones that do it sexist, even when one of them is a woman.

 

[donners22]

Sisko was revived, only instead of resuming command, he flew down to Bajor to raise kids. (And just IMAGINE the hell you all would raise if they had Janeway do the same thing.)

Actually some women would love it. There is a whole subgenre of fan fiction called "Baby Fic" is it a mirror of romance fiction's baby fic. It has a very viable following.

There's a subgenre of fan fiction involving Kirk in a sexual relationship with Spock, B'Elanna as a dominatrix and so forth. I wouldn't want that to appear in published books - though the latter already has.