Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot

[DimesDan]

Basically, I'm a believer in Ellison's rule about everyone being entitled to an informed opinion.

That can be a slippery slope. Who gets to define "informed"?

I'm a huge dog lover and know enough about the movie "Old Yeller" to say you'll never catch me watching that sicko doggie snuff film ever. Is that unfair to the creators of the film? Perhaps. Am I right to feel this way? I guess it depends on your point of view.

We have been "informed" that Janeway was killed in a Trek Book, the discussion is here. So here we are.

KimC is right you cannot define "informed".

Brit

In England there is a country pursuit that entails a man on a horse with some dogs joining in chasing a Fox. A few years ago this pursuit was made illegal. Now this was happening while I was at University where several of the persons on the course were from London or other large cities where as I myself live in a very rural area. My fellow students due to the nature of the course wrote articles and also made TV packages on Fox Hunting and it always had a negative angle on it. Now. Me. I like all the others on my course had never gone fox hunting and when ever the discussion came up on it, I down right refused to join in because I personally believe that until you experience and take part in something like that your opinion is null and void due to a simple case of ignorance.

I still have not been fox hunting although on Boxing Day I did venture out to one of the local hunts. BUT. I have read Before Dishonour, I know what happens, I know the context of what happens because I've read the book and because I've read some interviews and posts on here and that has helped with me understanding the context of the possible death of one Admiral Kathryn Janeway. To me though it is a pretty non issue. As I have said. Star Trek is a fictional construct. It is not real, so the possible death of Janeway and the reactions from a very small number of poster on here just boggles the mind.

But, anyway, my little anicdote about fox hunting is how I persive informed decision and given that to the best of my knowledge you have not read the events in question than that is not an informed decision.

 

[Steve Roby]

Don't spare my feelings here. I'm sure you're talking about me here so why not simply use my name?

Because he isn't talking about you specifically? Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not the first (and most likely not the last) one to come in here with that attitude.

Defcon's right. If it applies to you, wear it with pride, but you're the most recent of a few people to whom that description applies.

Anyway, I really hoped at least one of the people who's upset about Janeway's death and planning to boycott the books would make some kind of serious reply to my first post in this thread.

So the question now becomes, are there any Voyager novels published by Pocket that the hardcore Janeway fans like? Is there a book that they can rally around as an example for Pocket to follow? If not, what's the problem? Is it that Pocket has not once, in nearly 40 books of original Voyager fiction, come close to what you're looking for? Is it that what you're looking for (exclusive focus on Janeway, acknowledgment of the Janeway/Chokatay relationship) isn't really in line with what Pocket and Paramount/CBS see as what Voyager is about? Is it that you just haven't bothered reading them and you really don't know whether they have anything to offer you?

 

[Thrawn]

In all fairness, Steve, I think the problem is much more likely that they've already bought the books they expect to like, and don't see the need to buy the same thing again.

 

[donners22]

It's a case of putting your money where your mouth is. If there really are a lot of Voyager/Janeway fans being represented by you, Brit, kimc, et al., show Pocket your economic clout.

Not sure how much economic clout I have, but I've bought a handful of books in the last nine years, as opposed to the 100+ before that. It doesn't mean that the quality of books (from my perspective) has improved, but at least I've saved a lot of money...

 

[donners22]

In England there is a country pursuit that entails a man on a horse with some dogs joining in chasing a Fox. A few years ago this pursuit was made illegal. Now this was happening while I was at University where several of the persons on the course were from London or other large cities where as I myself live in a very rural area. My fellow students due to the nature of the course wrote articles and also made TV packages on Fox Hunting and it always had a negative angle on it. Now. Me. I like all the others on my course had never gone fox hunting and when ever the discussion came up on it, I down right refused to join in because I personally believe that until you experience and take part in something like that your opinion is null and void due to a simple case of ignorance.

I think those supporting hunting ought to be hunted themselves. That way, they could have an informed opinion.

Incidentally, your stance there appears to be a gross generalisation at best. I can think of several things which any person could reasonably determine are wrong or offensive without experiencing them themselves.

 

[Marie1]

I agree that its best to have experienced something, but I don't think you need to necessarily just to have an opinion.
For instance, I would have a negative angle of fox hunting because it involves the terror and suffering of an innocent animal, torn apart by other animals, for the sake of an old tradition. The hunt goes on just fine, the animals prove their tracking ability, with just a scent trail now. Likewise, Janeway may be gone for now (I mean, we all thought that about Sisko, to some in the DS9 forum who haven't read the PF, he's literally dead) but she may be around in flashbacks, memories, her influence lives on, and the people she cared about lived. (Holy cow... I'm starting to sound like she's a real person... eek!)

And there are a myriad of other things that don't need to be experienced before someone forms an opinion. So I can understand why someone who is a huge fan of a specific character would have a hard time with a series when that character died, especially a main one. But if you like the character, you like what built them: the series. So I would imagine they'd read at least read the books the character was in. And if they liked the series for other reasons, they'd continue, missing the character as the crew did. What I don't get is why if someone liked other series of Trek, they'd stop reading those if a character from another series died...

As covered before, its rare that all someone's favourite characters in all series will die... and Pocket isn't out to torture us by killing the favourites of the majority... I guess it seems to me like doing that is making yourself suffer...

 

[Brit]

Ok lets try this again. Why do you assume that we have not alread done just that. Because I bought "Distant Shores" when it came out. A number of us did, and we did write letters and we did leave feedback on Amazon. I read the books up to "Death in Winter" and I would have read "Resistance" but real life got in the way (my mother was very ill) and by the time I was able to read it "Before Dishonor" had came out and that pretty much killed any desire to read any trek book following it.

I think that the vocal Janeway bashers convinced the book editors and publishers that Janeway was expendable. She is not to many, many people. How do any of you know that in the near future someone will say it's "only Geordi," or "only Riker," or even eventually "only Picard" because you see I don't want a Trek universe without any of these characters. You all have set yourselves on a slippery slope here.

The Janeway fans were betrayed, so answer me this, who will be the next one?

Brit

 

[Thrawn]

I wouldn't mind at all if any of those three characters you mentioned were killed, as long as the story was good enough. And I like all of them a lot.

In one of the other threads, we were discussing Joss Whedon; I'm pretty sure he's killed off between 10% and 20% of all the main characters that have ever appeared on his shows, and I felt that all of them were important and good plot turns. The Star Trek universe has a hell of a long way to go to even approach a number like that, and honestly with Whedon I wouldn't have minded even more.

Again: so long as the stories were good enough.

 

[William Leisner]

I think that the vocal Janeway bashers convinced the book editors and publishers that Janeway was expendable.

What would make you think a thing like this? Why would you think the editors anymore listen to one side than to another? Or that editors don't use their own minds when they make decisions?

 

[donners22]

Presumably editors make decisions based on what they perceive the fanbase would be interested in and be likely to react well to. What they use to determine this is anyone's guess.

 

[Mriana]

You know, while the older Janeway died, it seems a bit illogical, IMO, to kill off the younger one. In Imzadi, Deanna had died, but Will went back in time and saved her, thus changed the timeline. Can't say the same for Imzadi II. Peter David disappointed me with the second book.

Even I recently killed off a character in fanfic, BUT it was a logical death and one that needed to be written. I had Lwaxana die. Not a single person threw a fit about it, but rather appreciated the story. Those who saw the original story, written long ago, appreciated that I polished it and did the story justice in memory of Majel.

What's my point? Good fiction writers consider their audience, gives them what they want, and sometimes what they need. I gave my fans what they needed, even what I needed, as fans of Majel, concerning Majel/Lwaxana. I did not have to hear my audience's spoken words to know that it would be an acceptable story. Sometimes one doesn't have to hear their words to know what people want and/or need, but one can still listen. IF a writer listens, to both expressed and unexpressed thoughts and concerns, they get better results. Sometimes it is just intuitive for the writer.

I haven't seen any listening here by the supposed author, mostly its just been what the author wants without consideration of their audience. Seems to me, one would get a wider reader base if s/he listened to the audience. Thus, the writer seems to be the one getting the vegetables and not the other way around.

Just my observations.

 

[Brit]

Because the Editors are in the business of making money, they want to publish what will sell, and if all they see is the posts that say "they should have killed Janeway and Kept Ransom as Voyager's Captain" how are they going to put any value on her as a character. I've been in business too many years to not know this simple fact. A publisher has to make money or he cannot publish.

Just why do you think that e-books and Sony readers are being promoted. When the publisher doesn't have to pay the printer he saves money. Today books shipped to a retail store are invoiced to that store with a payment due date of a year from now. Anything that doesn't get sold is returned before payment is made to the publishers. The risk is always on the publisher. This year enough books were returned in October to negate any profit for the whole year, and that was true for every publisher in the United States.

This has been a horrible year for publishing.

We are telling them that we want a living Janeway, we want Voyager books that are Voyager books, not Voyager characters secondary to Next Gen or DS9 characters. We want character driven plots with an emphasis on relationships, both friendship and intimate. We want this and we can show you that it sells.

Brit

 

[elaithin]

My god. The amount of persecution complex displayed in this thread is just... staggering.


Mriana, to address your points - that way lies madness. A fanfiction writer like you or I can do that. We have a very tiny audience.

But for an immense multimedia property like Star Trek, that's a literal impossibility. How would one decide which fans - especially a group as fractious as Star Trek fans - to listen to? They can't. Therefore, the writers and editors simply have to try to tell the best story they can the best way they know how.

 

[Mriana]

elaithin, have you ever taken a writing class? First rule- consider your audience. It does not lie madness, but rather satisfaction. And just how exactly do you know I'm JUST a fanfic writer? To tell you the truth, I am more than that. I also write non-fiction and not what is just on my site. I have non-fiction in places in which it is only for said audience and non-fiction in places for the general public, besides my site. For all I know, you will probably find it if you did a search. So, I am not just a fanfic writer.

I have yet to go insane considering my audience and following the general rules of writing that I have learned in various writing classes.

 

[Brit]

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and exists even here on this board. Any place that has the book authors posting has some kind of influence no matter what you say. This is a semi official board and the Janeway bashing here is pretty much out in the open.

The true question is why does a living Janeway scare you all so much?

Brit

 

[Semah]

elaithin, have you ever taken a writing class? First rule- consider your audience. It does not lie madness, but rather satisfaction. And just how exactly do you know I'm JUST a fanfic writer? To tell you the truth, I am more than that. I also write non-fiction and not what is just on my site. I have non-fiction in places in which it is only for said audience and non-fiction in places for the general public, besides my site. For all I know, you will probably find it if you did a search. So, I am not just a fanfic writer.

I have yet to go insane considering my audience and following the general rules of writing that I have learned in various writing classes.

wow.

 

[Thrawn]

The true question is why does a living Janeway scare you all so much?

Brit

Oh for fuck's sake.

I was so terrified of Janeway being alive that I just hid under my bed and wouldn't come out until the good editors knocked off the bitch! THANK GOD IT'S SAFE TO GO OUTSIDE!!

Right.

Will you get off it? No one who didn't like her gave the slightest tiny little bit of a turd whether or not she was a Strong Woman, and the mere idea that someone could be so intimidated by a fictional character they didn't have to read that they would overcompensate by screaming murder from the rooftops enough to influence the decisions of anyone, much less the editors in charge of the franchise, is literally the single most ludicrous thing I've read on this site ever.

 

[JD]

And while the 1/20th figure is clearly pulled out of thin air, I think it's very safe to assume that "Janeway fans" are a fraction of "Voyager fans" -- after all, there are plenty of Trek fans who liked Spock more than Kirk, Data more than Picard, Kira more than Sisko, Porthos more than Archer. How large a fraction? I don't think anyone can say... but between her, The Doctor, Seven, and Tuvok, I feel safe in supposing none of them have a majority of fans.

I'm just curious why do you feel it's safe to say that?

Possibly because it has a grain of truth to it.

Although not a massive fan of Voyager when it was first broadcast over here but over the last year or so I've watched all of modern Trek and I've become to appreciate it more. BUT. Janeway is not my favourite character, hell, she's not even in the top five (The Doc, B'Elanna, Tom, Seven and Tuvok) although not my least favourite charachter, and the few people I know who also like Voyager don't think she's the best thing on there.

So why is William feeling "safe" to say what he did, because regardless of one's personal opinion on the matter, only a small number of people would say she is the best thing since sliced bread on that crew.

Wow, that is pretty much my top five characters as well. Scary.

It's just simple math.

In order for this oncoming boycott to have any reasonable effect, it has to be noticeable. Full Circle will likely sell somewhere in the tens of thousands of copies, much like most trek novels these days. In order to make a dent, it has to undersell by a few hundred. That means that, not only do these theoretical legions of Janeway fans need to be quite numerous, they also need to be MORE numerous than the fans that will be buying the book that WOULDN'T have otherwise because they LIKE the idea of the story.

So think about it.

How many people do you really think fit the following criteria?
1) Huge fans of Janeway.

I'm not

2) Huge fans of ONLY Janeway, or at least, mostly Janeway, to the point where they aren't interested in the stories of any of the other characters they presumably like without her there.

Not me

3) Used to buy every Voyager book that was ever released. (This is key.)

I've only bought 6 Voyager books, Distant Shores, Homecoming, The String Theory trilogy, and the first Dark Matters (and of those I've only read a coulple chapters of Homecoming (didn't like it) and the String Theory, although I do plan to read DS in the near future)

4) Now won't.

I will

And do you think it's bigger than the number of people who
1) Buy some books, don't buy others.

I do this

2) Are intrigued by the first Voyager book in a couple years. OR

This is true for me

3) Are intrigued by how they'll handle Janeway's death. OR

again true for me

4) Liked String Theory and want to see Beyer's next book. OR

Same

5) Liked Destiny and want to read all the follow-ups. OR

repeat

6) Haven't even heard of this controversy at all, are new fans of the show, and are curious what happens after it ends. OR

Sadly, I obviously have

7) etc, etc, etc

I'm also curious about what will happen to Tom, Seven, Harry, Chakotay, The Doctor,

Spoiler: Info From the Bulrb for FC, and Major VOY related spoiler from A Singular Destiny

who the new Captain of Voyager will be, and if B'Elanna a and Miral are really dead

.

 

[LightningStorm]

This is a semi official board...

No, it's really not.

 

[CoriM]

Having Janeway die, especially in the manner in which she did, to me, goes against the core values of Roddenberry's Star Trek. He set about creating a universe in which what he wanted didn't matter and what the majority wanted didn't matter, but where everyone's needs would be met.

The idea for Star Trek came out of the tumultuous 60s, a time of change, when most boundaries were being challenged and people was struggling to get others to see their humanity and to acknowledge it, even if it made them uncomfortable. That's what I was taught was the meaning behind IDIC.

One quickly notices that characters were never allowed to ignore, write off or show malice toward any species or gender for personal reasons and that they were made to understand that a person or a subset had the right to exist even if even if that went against that person likes or dislikes likes , or in some cases, their very understanding the core questions of existence or life itself.

Even if one didn't like Janeway because she was unpredictable and emotional. perhaps even simply a woman, to vilify her and then to kill her, because it satisfies one segment of the fandom, goes against the values that Roddenberry seem to want us to understand when he created the franchise. It's not about the individual us, the group of us or even one whole race of us. It's about the whole universe of us. And in our stories, in print or out, and in our fandom, that includes every character and every person of every gender.

Following the desire for to keep hope and equality at the base of all of Trek, is what I think has kept the writers from killing off captains like Picard or Sisko, something I wouldn't want to see happen even though I'm not a fan of the latter because I recognize the diversity of the community and how such a writing decision would affect others.

I'm thinking that Janeway's death happened because it was decided that the books should go with the many, as Spock would say, in our fan base instead of remembering that, in the end, Roddenberry always made so that those who respected all got their needs met along with everyone else and that everybody benefited from the diversity.