Discovery's Klingon War in the Kelvinverse

[bryce]

I don't think it happened. Not in the Kelvinverse.

Because Admiral Marcus said something about how the Klingons have been coming their way for some time now, and how war was only a matter of time.

Making it sound like there hadn't *been* a war just a decade ago.

I am thinking that the arrival of the Neurda and it's subsequent capture by the Klingons must have delayed the war. Perhaps upsetting the balance - or lack of balance - between the Houses that led to the war in the Prime universe.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

The Narada destroyed 47 Klingon Warbirds, and if Nero communicated with the Klingons the way he did with the Federation, then the Klingons would've known it was a Romulan ship - and maybe turned their focus on the Romulans rather than the Federation (while each side was also replacing its losses). So I would expect there to be differences like what you outlined.

 

[fireproof78]

The Narada destroyed 47 Klingon Warbirds, and if Nero communicated with the Klingons the way he did with the Federation, then the Klingons would've known it was a Romulan ship - and maybe turned their focus on the Romulans rather than the Federation (while each side was also replacing its losses). So I would expect there to be differences like what you outlined.

That was always my interpretation too. The Klingons became far more concerned about the potential Romulan threat that to immediately go out and seek a fight with the Federation.

 

[Smellmet]

I don't think it happened. Not in the Kelvinverse.

Because Admiral Marcus said something about how the Klingons have been coming their way for some time now, and how war was only a matter of time.

Making it sound like there hadn't *been* a war just a decade ago.

I am thinking that the arrival of the Neurda and it's subsequent capture by the Klingons must have delayed the war. Perhaps upsetting the balance - or lack of balance - between the Houses that led to the war in the Prime universe.

I think you've answered your own question to be fair

 

[M'Sharak]

It wouldn't be much of an alternate reality if events all happened at exactly the same times and in exactly the same ways as in the "prime" timeline. Or happened at all, for that matter.

If the two realities were so alike as to be completely and absolutely interchangeable, what point would there be in examining an "alternate" one?

 

[BillJ]

I don't think it happened. Not in the Kelvinverse.

Didn't happen in the Prime universe either. *runs*

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't think it happened in the Kelvin Timeline. If it did, Admiral Marcus would've already had the recent experience to draw from.

Moreover, I'm just assuming everything from 2233 on went in a wildly different direction, except Kirk's crew somehow winds up on the Enterprise and Kirk fights Khan. But otherwise... Michael Burnham being orphaned would qualify as "after 2233", so I don't think any version of DSC happens in the Kelvin Timeline.

 

[thribs]

Hard enough to believe it happened in the prime timeline, never mind JJVerse.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Definitely didn't happen in Kelvin. The Klingons were a largely unknown threat in 2259, as Marcus says.

Doesn't fit into Prime either, but a retcon is a retcon.

 

[fireproof78]

Works in Prime fine.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, Kirk is supposedly a war hero, that is, a great military commander ("Whom Gods Destroy"). Couldn't happen before or after the mid-2250s, so DSC is just perfect there.

The Narada destroyed 47 Klingon Warbirds, and if Nero communicated with the Klingons the way he did with the Federation, then the Klingons would've known it was a Romulan ship - and maybe turned their focus on the Romulans rather than the Federation (while each side was also replacing its losses). So I would expect there to be differences like what you outlined.

To be sure, Starfleet moved out of the way of Nero because they heard of 47 lost Klingon ships. Might be Nero killed them. Might be he only claimed to kill them, thus enabling his plan by luring Starfleet away. After all, Nero wages an information war: he sends false messages ("seismic troubles on Vulcan") while jamming true communications, and kidnaps key personnel for secret codes and superweapons. And he's not a soldier or a supervillain, so it's unlikely he would or even could alter his modus operandi much...

Nero communicated with the Federation by firing a lot, then showing his face and saying "Hi, I'm Nero, now surrender and come over to be spear... I mean spared". He looked like a Vulcan with a tattoo, and nothing suggested he spoke anything but English to his victims. How would the Federation, or the Klingons, come to the conclusion that Nero was a Romulan? The Feds didn't know back in 2233 that Romulans were Vulcans. Did the Klingons know that? If not, Nero introducing himself the same way would leave the Klingons none the wiser.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

How would the Federation, or the Klingons, come to the conclusion that Nero was a Romulan? The Feds didn't know back in 2233 that Romulans were Vulcans. Did the Klingons know that? If not, Nero introducing himself the same way would leave the Klingons none the wiser.

Timo Saloniemi

Watch the scene again. Even before they arrive at Vulcan, Kirk warns Pike that they're flying into a trap set by a massive "Romulan" ship. Then when Pike has Nero on the viewscreen, he says he will set up talks with Romulan leadership, and Nero says he stands apart from the empire. There's no confusion about being Vulcans or any other species.

In any case, there's no reason to think the Klingons & Starfleet would have exactly the same interactions with all other species, so the Klingons could know Romulans better than Starfleet did, but at least in Kelvin Trek, they knew they were Romulans as clearly shown in the dialogue.

 

[Lord Garth]

Indeed, Kirk is supposedly a war hero, that is, a great military commander ("Whom Gods Destroy"). Couldn't happen before or after the mid-2250s, so DSC is just perfect there.

Kor has also heard of Kirk. He becomes excited when he realizes it's Kirk, when the Organians blow his cover in "Errand of Mercy". So the reputation had to come from somewhere...

link

.
.
.

AYELBORNE: What are you going to do with him, Commander?
KOR: What is always done with spies and saboteurs. He will be killed, after he has had first-hand experience of our mind scanner.
AYELBORNE: There's no need to use your machine on him, commander. I can tell you his name. It is Captain James T. Kirk.
KIRK: Ayelborne!
KOR: What? (A big grin spreads across his face) Captain of the USS Enterprise. A starship commander. And his first officer? I had hoped to meet you in battle, but
AYELBORNE: For some reason, he feels that he must destroy you, Commander, just as you feel you must destroy him.
KOR: That's going to be rather difficult now. Isn't it, Captain? What an admirable people. Do you always betray your friends?
AYELBORNE: I didn't want you to harm him. I'm sorry, Captain. It was for the best. No harm would come of it.
KIRK: I'm used to the idea of dying, but I have no desire to die for the likes of you.
KOR: I don't blame you, Captain. Lock up the Vulcan. Take the Captain to my office. We'll have a talk before I do what must be done.

[Kor's office]

KOR: You'll have a drink with me, Captain?
KIRK: No, thank you.
KOR: I assure you it isn't drugged. With our mind-scanner, we have no need for such crude methods.
KIRK: What do you want from me?
KOR: Oh, a very great deal, but first I want to talk. Just talk.
KIRK: You think I'm going to sit here and just talk with the enemy?
KOR: You'll talk. Either here, now, voluntarily, or under our mind-scanner. The fact is, Captain, I have a great admiration for your Starfleet. A remarkable instrument. And I must confess to a certain admiration for you.

.
.
.

Kirk must have had some type of accomplishments that would make Kor respect him as an adversary. The simplest explanation is that Kirk fought them before. And something stood out to make Kor take notice. You don't need Discovery to see that. It's right there, even without it.

But, like I said earlier in the thread, I still don't think another version of DSC happened in the Kelvin Timeline. And I throw anything after 2233 that would've happened in the Prime Timeline out the window.

 

[valkyrie013]

Maybe praxis exploded early because it was being mined to exhastion after Nero came .. Maybe after he destroyed 47 ships.. So they coyldntake advantage of Vulcan being vacu-sucked..

 

[thribs]

It’s the degree the war went in Discovery I find hard to to implement to the prime timeline. The Klingons nearly defeated Starfleet there; taking over a base that was 100 AU from Earth. That is insanely close.
I believe there was a “war” in the prime, but it was nothing that major.

 

[Lord Garth]

It’s the degree the war went in Discovery I find hard to to implement to the prime timeline. The Klingons nearly defeated Starfleet there; taking over a base that was 100 AU from Earth. That is insanely close.
I believe there was a “war” in the prime, but it was nothing that major.

Okay. I can see that point of view.

 

[Timo]

Watch the scene again. Even before they arrive at Vulcan, Kirk warns Pike that they're flying into a trap set by a massive "Romulan" ship.

That's not "the scene", though. That's an alternate 2263, by which time the UFP has learned who the Romulans are (and the three dialects they speak).

The scene from 2233 comes earlier - and isn't the one where the heroes would learn who the Romulans are, either; there are no clues there for them. But at some point, the truth is revealed, in time for Pike to write it into his dissertation. Perhaps the Romulans in every timeline attempt audacious schemes of infiltration or invasion, and their cover is blown there, sometime around the mid-23rd century? Perhaps there is an ongoing scheme of meddling with Vulcan affairs, and it's bound to blow out into the open around this time anyway, so the Romulans see no harm in doing those audacious things...

In any case, there's no reason to think the Klingons & Starfleet would have exactly the same interactions with all other species, so the Klingons could know Romulans better than Starfleet did, but at least in Kelvin Trek, they knew they were Romulans as clearly shown in the dialogue.

And some time before the date of "Balance of Terror", too. But not yet in 2233, apparently.

One does wonder: we never get any good hints on what the Klingons know of the Romulans, no "we have been blood enemies for exactly 431 years" statements, amazingly enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

It’s the degree the war went in Discovery I find hard to to implement to the prime timeline. The Klingons nearly defeated Starfleet there; taking over a base that was 100 AU from Earth. That is insanely close.
I believe there was a “war” in the prime, but it was nothing that major.

Yeah, I can see that.

 

[BillJ]

It’s the degree the war went in Discovery I find hard to to implement to the prime timeline. The Klingons nearly defeated Starfleet there; taking over a base that was 100 AU from Earth. That is insanely close.
I believe there was a “war” in the prime, but it was nothing that major.

This. I could see some skirmishes with the Klingons happening prior to TOS, but not a full-scale war like in Discovery. Which is a problem I’ve had with the show. Everything has to be over-the-top, there is little in the way of subtlety.

 

[Markonian]

I’d love to see, in a comic mini-series or in other fashion, the Kelvin-timeline USS Shenzhou/Georgiou having a different fate.

Same goes for Prime USS Kelvin/Robau actually.