I'm sure glad "Errand of Mercy" isn't canon, otherwise Carol's statement would be totally falsified...
Discovery Showrunner Promises Season 2 Character Exploration And Tying Up Canon Loose Ends
- Thread starter Tuskin38
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Which Federation planets were invaded? Did Klingon forces even make it into claimed Federation space during the war?
The Organians stopped the two fleets just before the first major battle.
Then it's a good thing Russia has prevented USA and NATO from invading South Ossetia and Crimea, since the locals would likely not want the kind of "peace" that they show in Libya and Iraq.
This isn’t the place for politicsThen it's a good thing Russia has prevented USA and NATO from invading South Ossetia and Crimea, since the locals would likely not want the kind of "peace" that they show in Libya and Iraq.
Not counting DSC incidents, Carol was either omitting or had forgotten about / wasn't aware of:
- The Battle of Donatu V:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Donatu_V
- The Battle of Axanar:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Axanar
- The Battle of Caleb IV:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Caleb_IV
- The Federation-Sheliak Conflict:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Federation-Sheliak_Conflict
- The Attack on Cestus III:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cestus_III
- The Interplanetary Conflict of Altair VI:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Altair_VI
All of which took place within her 100 year timespan before TWoK.
I always had a different take on that keeping the peace line. Marcus accused the military of using scientists as pawns, which Marcus refuted as not being the case for a hundred years.
Maybe a century ago, scientists really were used and abused by a more ruthless and expansionist military.
Maybe a century ago, scientists really were used and abused by a more ruthless and expansionist military.
There's a big difference between a single battle or skirmish, or even an interplanetary conflict in a single system (as with Altair), and an all-out war with a major enemy that lasts for over a year and threatens the homeworlds of both powers.
Not sure what that has to do with it. You quoted Marcus saying "Starfleet has kept the peace for over a hundred years". The Federation was at war. Starfleet failed to keep the peace. That's the point.
The Jedi Knights kept the peace for "1,000 generations" but there were still plenty of wars. I think peacekeeping in this context is more about the act of maintaining relative order and stability than the result of absolute, unbroken peace (which is impossible in most settings).
the federation and the empire apparently frequently exchange fire, damage and even destroy ships. this isn't war, it's just sabor rattling.
errand of mercy saw a klingon ship destroyed. and two fleets move towards open battle. but in the end there was no war.
got damned close. but no the federation didn't go to war.
in the case of errand of mercy. it was the organians who kept the peace.
being prepared (materially and mentally) for war us a good way not to have to fight. some times having someone break up the fight works too.
Nope. There are some very clear quotes from the episode like "Well, there it is. War. We didn't want it, but we've got it" (Kirk), "I respect you, Captain, but this is war [...]" (Kor), "We have simply put an end to your war" or "I'm putting a stop to this insane war." (both Ayelborne). We don't know if there was an official declaration of any kind, but all of the characters seem to be pretty sure of it. The Organians weren't preventing a war, they were stopping which seems like a bit of a difference.
Yep, Starfleet was pretty useless, keeping the peace there.
Not exactly. At the end of the last Mirror Universe episode where they return to Prime and get a look at the tactical map, they do make the claim the entire Federation has fallen to the Klingons, but in the next episode Admiral Cornwell says only twenty percent of the Federation had fallen. Basically handwaving away the dramatic cliffhanger the previous episode ended on.
^ Of course they did. Figures.
To be accurate, the first statement (as opposed to question) in your original post implies that you knew that no explanation for why Kirk didn't know about the MU had been given. Then you asked if it it had explained because you didn't watch any of the MU episodes. Your initial statement and ensuing questions seem to conflict.
I would have preferred that Lorca not be from the MU as well, but the fact that the show would have Jason Isaaks for only the first season meant that they had to find a way to write him out by the end of the season.
You could simply have him killed in combat or transferred to another ship or other rather pedestrian fates, or something different could have been done. They had already killed a captain in combat, so it is no surprise that they didn't want to repeat themselves so soon. Like it or not, no one can deny that having a captain character introduced in the PU turn out to be a doppleganger from the MU.
Like I said I wasn't thrilled with Lorca being from the MU, but, since he had to go, this was at least an interesting and creative way to send the character on his way.
Through it's first 3 seasons, many of the fans who were critical of Ent, complained a lot about the fact that Ent kept introducing new alien races we'd never seen or heard of before, like the Suliban and Xindi. These fans thought this was particularly egregious because Ent was a prequel.
Fans also criticized Ent for not showing us incidents we were familiar with, like the Kobayashi Maru. What Ent was trying to do was something "original". They even dropped the name Star Trek from the title in order to emphasize that Ent was going in a different direction.
Ent, season 4 gave us tons of stories and situations which emanated from Trek lore. Season 4 was considered by most to be Ent's best (personally, I think it was season 3, for the record). BTW, there was a faction of fans who complained that this was fanwank.
Bottom line, you may want originality, but if you think Trek fans really want something original, then you may not know Trek fans like you might think you do.
My fervent hope for DSC season 2, is that the show runners NOT do things just to accommodate the fans.
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IMHO, the problem with ENT's first two seasons was basically that although it was mostly telling stories about new races, it was basically telling the exact same kind of stories as TNG or VOY had. They attempted to futz with things a bit - making the crew a bit more flawed (especially Archer) the universal translator not always work, and United Earth not yet be the utopia of the TNG era. But ultimately, too many of the stories told could have just as easily been on another series.
DS9 was the only later Berman-era Trek show which found its own voice. Notably, it did so even though outside of the Dominion, the races focused upon were all established in TOS or TNG. It was telling stories about the same aliens, but it was telling a different kind of story about them, for the most part.
Voyager introduced new alien races every week. VOY has the least "fanwank" of any of the series. Yet, somehow, it doesn't look like most of the people who claim they want something new think of VOY as their favorite series. Insurrection had totally unknown, never-before-seen races. Most people think it's a forgettable movie.
On the other hand: Section 31 appeared in Star Trek Into Darkness and -- to my knowledge -- not a word about it from people who love STID. Not even a peep. Section 31 wanting to use Khan in that movie. Again, not even a peep. No outrage whatsoever from fans of the movie about Gene's Vision (which I think is a convenient thing for people to hide behind if they don't like any particular Star Trek movie made after TMP or anything particular with Star Trek on TV after TNG Season 2).
Then, the icing on the cake: ENT Fans -- of all people -- complaining about fanwank on DSC. Really. Really? Nothing in Season 1 of DSC about fanwank even approaches the fourth season of ENT. Nothing. Let me know when DSC has an episode with explaining Klingon Foreheads. Let me know when they have a trilogy of episodes explaining Vulcans were really the way they were because they were being manipulated by Romulans. Oh, and not single peep from fans of ENT about how they have two episodes devoted to the Mirror Universe. I won't even get into Riker and Troi on the holodeck. Or Dr. Soong's ancestor. IMO, anyone who complains about "fanwank" in DSC but as no problem with "fanwank" in ENT is a total hypocrite.
Then there's the Xindi. Say all you want about the Klingon make-up. The Xindi look ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can take them seriously. And the Xindi War felt cartoonishly ridiculous a lot of the time.
So things like this are why I really have to agree to disagree with a lot of detractors of DSC. We just don't see eye-to-eye at all. Especially if they also like ENT.
The best I can figure is if you like something you'll look the other way. If you don't, you'll criticize it or outright trash it for things other series have done before. It's less a reflection of the show in question and more a reflection of people's biases. And what people will let slide or come down on due to those biases.
I have no issue with Section 31 in DSC because I'm not a fan of ENT and I didn't like Star Trek Into Darkness, so I don't care about what either one of them did with Section 31. In my mind, Star Trek might as well have ended in 1999 and picked up again in 2017.* DS9 barely had any time to do anything with Section 31 so this is a second chance.
* After DS9 ended in 1999, I stuck around VOY for Ron Moore's three episodes and that was it. Otherwise, I really started to sour on Voyager during the fifth season. I thought Jeri Taylor stepping down after the fourth season was a major loss. I eventually (re-)watched the entire series in 2008 and warmed up to it compared to how I felt about it during The Turn of the Millennium. With ENT, I stopped watching after six episodes (and did not stick around the forum, unlike people who feel the need to stick around here) and binged the show in 2010. While I don't think ENT is bad, it's really, really dull and I can't connect to it.
Wow, did I just vent (I don't think I intended to when I started typing but then that's what it turned into)... I just wanted to get that off my chest. People will disagree with a lot or all of what I just posted, but it's fine.
That was strangely cathartic.
On the other hand: Section 31 appeared in Star Trek Into Darkness and -- to my knowledge -- not a word about it from people who love STID. Not even a peep. Section 31 wanting to use Khan in that movie. Again, not even a peep. No outrage whatsoever from fans of the movie about Gene's Vision (which I think is a convenient thing for people to hide behind if they don't like any particular Star Trek movie made after TMP or anything particular with Star Trek on TV after TNG Season 2).
Then, the icing on the cake: ENT Fans -- of all people -- complaining about fanwank on DSC. Really. Really? Nothing in Season 1 of DSC about fanwank even approaches the fourth season of ENT. Nothing. Let me know when DSC has an episode with explaining Klingon Foreheads. Let me know when they have a trilogy of episodes explaining Vulcans were really the way they were because they were being manipulated by Romulans. Oh, and not single peep from fans of ENT about how they have two episodes devoted to the Mirror Universe. I won't even get into Riker and Troi on the holodeck. Or Dr. Soong's ancestor. IMO, anyone who complains about "fanwank" in DSC but as no problem with "fanwank" in ENT is a total hypocrite.
Then there's the Xindi. Say all you want about the Klingon make-up. The Xindi look ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can take them seriously. And the Xindi War felt cartoonishly ridiculous a lot of the time.
So things like this are why I really have to agree to disagree with a lot of detractors of DSC. We just don't see eye-to-eye at all. Especially if they also like ENT.
The best I can figure is if you like something you'll look the other way. If you don't, you'll criticize it or outright trash it for things other series have done before. It's less a reflection of the show in question and more a reflection of people's biases. And what people will let slide or come down on due to those biases.
I have no issue with Section 31 in DSC because I'm not a fan of ENT and I didn't like Star Trek Into Darkness, so I don't care about what either one of them did with Section 31. In my mind, Star Trek might as well have ended in 1999 and picked up again in 2017.* DS9 barely had any time to do anything with Section 31 so this is a second chance.
* After DS9 ended in 1999, I stuck around VOY for Ron Moore's three episodes and that was it. Otherwise, I really started to sour on Voyager during the fifth season. I thought Jeri Taylor stepping down after the fourth season was a major loss. I eventually (re-)watched the entire series in 2008 and warmed up to it compared to how I felt about it during The Turn of the Millennium. With ENT, I stopped watching after six episodes (and did not stick around the forum, unlike people who feel the need to stick around here) and binged the show in 2010. While I don't think ENT is bad, it's really, really dull and I can't connect to it.
Wow, did I just vent (I don't think I intended to when I started typing but then that's what it turned into)... I just wanted to get that off my chest. People will disagree with a lot or all of what I just posted, but it's fine.
That was strangely cathartic.
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What you're missing there is Trek fans want good and interesting originality. Not just something different.
Please, Voyager is all fanwank. The show is geared to Trek fans and what previously was said was wanted. The show had the hero ship engage in more exploration than any of other the Trek shows. They were "out there." They met more different aliens. Had a diverse group of main characters. Didn't have a male captain. We saw (some) characters change over time. Each of the characters had episodes that focused on them.
Oh, there were words.
Section 31 was very different in Into Darkness than in DS9 and ENT. It had infinite resources, secret underground bases, secret superships and was run by the head of Starfleet himself.
In DS9 and ENT, they operate in the shadows using whatever's available. Sloan even explicitly says there are no bases or headquarters for S31.
I'm expecting DSC's version to be a mix of the two.
In DS9 and ENT, they operate in the shadows using whatever's available. Sloan even explicitly says there are no bases or headquarters for S31.
I'm expecting DSC's version to be a mix of the two.
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