It really wasn't.
Discovery jumping into Kronos cave contradicts TNG Pegasus
- Thread starter Yistaan
- Start date
It really wasn't.
"Congratulations Admiral, you're now Chief of Starfleet Operations. Here's your desk overlooking the Bay, and your console which has access to the entire database of Starfleet and the Federation at large. You can ask it any question, and it will provide you an answer."
"Computer, what is love?"
And then they'll ignore it, they way they've ignored the advice they've been given about science and technology since 1964. Ultimately it comes down to a creative choice. What serves the story best?
Yeah, the writers had no idea that 25 years later there would be a series depicting such an event. Why should the discovery writers be hand-tied by one line of dialogue in a pretty forgettable episode.
I think everyone's pretty much hit it on the head.
In-universe: This is obviously a highly sensitive and classified element of Starfleet history. Data doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Out-of-universe: nobody cares about a script-filler line from 25 years ago. There's a history of about 30 such inconsistencies, sometimes within the same series.
In-universe: This is obviously a highly sensitive and classified element of Starfleet history. Data doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Out-of-universe: nobody cares about a script-filler line from 25 years ago. There's a history of about 30 such inconsistencies, sometimes within the same series.
But even more fundamentally, in universe:
Being able to jump into the center of a planet with magic spores has absolutely nothing to do with the spelunking ordeal our E-D heroes face. Emperor Georgiou never "took" a ship deeply into a planetary body. She had the ship appear there for free, completely sidestepping the "taking" part that is making Data uneasy. Quoting the DSC thing would make no sense for Data in the context of "The Pegasus".
Timo Saloniemi
Being able to jump into the center of a planet with magic spores has absolutely nothing to do with the spelunking ordeal our E-D heroes face. Emperor Georgiou never "took" a ship deeply into a planetary body. She had the ship appear there for free, completely sidestepping the "taking" part that is making Data uneasy. Quoting the DSC thing would make no sense for Data in the context of "The Pegasus".
Timo Saloniemi
Given how pedantic Data was prone to being, this makes total sense. You have to take Data’s words literally - but that’s how Data communicates most of the time.
Separately, we could discuss how deep the Discovery actually went.
Our TNG heroes quote two kilometers before they reach the wreck of the Pegasus. That's only a few ship's lengths, but already enough to block the transporter in normal circumstances. If the DSC heroes went deeper than that, how did they access the surface of Qo'noS? Even a small flying drone was claimed to be unable to physically navigate the cave network; direct mention was made of beaming from the ship to the location where the heroes could connect to the dormant volcanoes. And then we see the beaming, straight from the ship to the surface town.
So the Discovery need not have broken any depth records there. Two klicks is a good divider: it's unlikely they went deeper than that, because of the transporter issue.
Timo Saloniemi
Our TNG heroes quote two kilometers before they reach the wreck of the Pegasus. That's only a few ship's lengths, but already enough to block the transporter in normal circumstances. If the DSC heroes went deeper than that, how did they access the surface of Qo'noS? Even a small flying drone was claimed to be unable to physically navigate the cave network; direct mention was made of beaming from the ship to the location where the heroes could connect to the dormant volcanoes. And then we see the beaming, straight from the ship to the surface town.
So the Discovery need not have broken any depth records there. Two klicks is a good divider: it's unlikely they went deeper than that, because of the transporter issue.
Timo Saloniemi
What bothers me is that some people would expect to hear these things even if DSC was written before TNG. TNG had 26 episodes per year each roughly 45 minutes long. That is 19.5 hours per year. This means TNG displayed roughly 0.22%* of what happened in a year. BUT only where the camera was. The average volume of space captured by the camera is maybe 200 cubic meters. 200 cubic meters is an astronomically small fraction of the volume of the alpha quadrant. So you expect to hear mention of every major event that occurred in the past in a show that captures 0.22 * 200 / (volume of Alpha quadrant)? Really?
Another way to estimate the information being discussed is to try to estimate the average conversation time in an episode * the average number of people aware of the conversation divided by the total population. In other words another extremely small number. How do you reason that all major cannon from prequels needed to be mentioned in such a small sample of the universe? Statistically it is very unlikely that anything be mentioned at all. How often do we hear about WWII as a percentage of total conversation in a given year? How much is this number impacted not by events but by entertainment focusing on it? What do you expect will happen to the frequency of WWII conversations in 50 years? 100 years? WWII is something taught to all children in school. There are frequently movies or video games using it for stories. It is a major part of our culture. Does it show up enough that it would be captured by a sample of 0.22% of people working on the same job?
*My assumption here is that all time is equal. TNG was roughly 99% focusing on when people were not sleeping so the .22% could be argued to actually be ~ .33% if you assume people sleep 1/3 of the time.
Really not about hearing it. More about whether or not it feels like it fits with what we know about the universe. The Klingon war simply doesn't feel like it fits. Though it does seem like it would warrant a mention during "Errand of Mercy", since both Kirk and Spock were serving in Starfleet during the war. I would also imagine the Organians would know about, perhaps using it as a reminder of what happens when the two went to war previously.
The Organians didn't give a hoot until Kirk and Kor brought it to their front door, so mentioning past history wasn't really on their agenda. They just wanted it to stop, period.
And it was pretty obvious to me watching the episode that things between the Federation & the Empire hadn't been rosy for quite a long time.
Just because no specifics of past battles were mentioned, doesn't invalidate what we've seen on Discovery.
And it was pretty obvious to me watching the episode that things between the Federation & the Empire hadn't been rosy for quite a long time.
Just because no specifics of past battles were mentioned, doesn't invalidate what we've seen on Discovery.
It should also have caused some mention of the previous starship Enterprise having had crew members taken over by said race, leading to them becoming isolationist. Or the Organians saying "Not you again!" but alas, everyone's memory was wonky that day.
Precisely!
Kruge: "Maltz, do you remember the time a Federation battleship appeared in the subterranian caves of Qo'nos?
Maltz: Yes, cap--
Kruge: NO, YOU DON'T. AND NEITHER DO I! UNDERSTOOD?
Except in "Observer Effect", it is clear that no one on the Enterprise remembers interacting with the Organians.
And why would the Organians want to discuss a past experience with humans, who they obviously consider quite inferior, with a Human?
I think several licensed, but non-canon, Trek sources went into this regarding Maltz himself: all Klingons insist he died over Genesis and deny even the possibility Kirk took him prisoner.
We know Klingons are capable of rewriting history: Unification confirmed that Gowron rewrote history to eliminate any Federation involvement in his victory in the Klingon Civil War.
I do concede that the Discovery may not have went as deep into Qo'noS as the Enterprise D went into the Pegasus asteroid, so it's possible Data was speaking in "exact words" in the TNG episode like he tends to do. Either that, or he is naive enough to take Klingon rewritten history at face value.
There’s also the episode where they encounter a silicon based life form but act like no such thing would exist, even though Kirk discovered one a hundred years earlier.
I guess any canon discreptencies should be due to “classified”.
I mean they were acting smug enough already, once they were outed it seemed weird they didn't mention it.
TOS had so many problems.
