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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

Hey as a reader contradictions are fine by me as long as they're acknowledged and an explanation given. Even if that explanation is Q snapped his fingers and changed it. ;)

I don't see the need to explain contradiction between things that are just stories. I don't need an explanation for why a Doctor Who or Stargate story doesn't fit in the Trek universe, because they're just imaginary. So I don't need an explanation for why two Trek stories don't fit together. They're all just made-up stuff. If we treat two stories as being part of a shared reality, that is made up too. It's just a pretense for the sake of the make-believe. The lack of that pretense requires no "explanation." It just means the stories aren't pretending to fit together. That's all it needs to mean.
 
I don't see the need to explain contradiction between things that are just stories. I don't need an explanation for why a Doctor Who or Stargate story doesn't fit in the Trek universe, because they're just imaginary. So I don't need an explanation for why two Trek stories don't fit together. They're all just made-up stuff. If we treat two stories as being part of a shared reality, that is made up too. It's just a pretense for the sake of the make-believe. The lack of that pretense requires no "explanation." It just means the stories aren't pretending to fit together. That's all it needs to mean.
Hey that's fine if some writers want to feel that way. That's their right. And if readers/audience members want to see explanations for contradictions in their entertainment, it's their right not to buy works that don't provide them.

The short lived 'Devil May Cry' reboot game after 4 was an example of fans not being pleased with the lack of explanation for the reboot that Capcom went back to the old canon in Devil May Cry 5.

I wasn't asking your particular opinion but was celebrating writers who do make attempt at continuity and engage the audience via twitter, etc. Chris Metzen at Blizzard was excellent in engaging the fans and working to provide an explanation for Sargeras' turn to evil when a contradiction was pointed out to him.

These are the writers whose works I'll purchase, and if some writers feel they don't need explanation because they openly declare "it's all fiction", I'll keep in mind to steer clear of those folks in my future purchases.

Here's an example on how Chris Metzen handles it--

Right… To be totally up-front with you guys, it’s my bad, straight up. The obvious lore contradiction with Sargeras and his encounter with the eredar was clearly documented in the Warcraft III manual. I wrote those bits about four years ago, and to be totally honest, I simply forgot. Genius, right? With my excitement to get the draenei up to speed and root them more firmly in the setting, I forgot to do my homework and go back over my earlier writing. I can assure you, no one’s more crushed about this mistake than I am. I’ve spent the last few days kicking my own ass over this one. Sucks to fail. It may not always be evident, but we take this story stuff really seriously at Blizzard.

While I can’t promise that these types of mistakes will never happen again, I do want to state clearly that we take the responsibility of crafting and maintaining this lore very seriously. You all pay good money to adventure through this world month by month, and you deserve the best we can give.

However, this new lore does leave a large hole – how did Sargeras go nuts? What drove him to fall and begin his Burning Crusade? I don’t know yet. It will be his encounter with some evil race (who dares me to use Old Gods???), but it won’t be the eredar.

I’ll chew on this. Maybe we’ll solve this by the end of the expansion. See – this is that flexibility stuff I was talking about earlier... :-)
 
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I’ve said since Discovery began, I never expected a show produced in the late 2010s to hold itself to a vision of the future from the 1960s. The concept of the future and what it would bring has changed drastically in those fifty years - we use technology that wasn’t in any way thought up by the audience when Star Trek premiered. Our ideas of what makes something look futuristic has changed since then, and I always thought it would have been a burden on Discovery to have them try to hold to the TOS aesthetic fifty years later and still be taken seriously by a modern audience.

Sure, when Star Trek has previously gone back, they’ve recreated the settings, because those were tributes to nostalgia. Discovery was going to live there. That’s an entirely different beast.
Oh I agree in general, I knew they were going to update everything to be acceptable to modern audiences, but I was expecting them to update the TOS designs, rather than throwing in so much new tech, and drastically different designs.
I actually like the designs and new technology we've gotten in DSC, it just feels a bit weird when you try and line it up with TOS. This also has not impacted my enjoyment of Discovery at all, I think the second season has been great so far, and I eagerly anticipate each new episode.
I like continuity, but it really has no impact on whether or not I like something. For me it's secondary to the overall quality of the thing itself.
Look at Solo over on Star Wars. Even the worst of the prequel films, even the Clone Wars movie (when Star Wars was all one continuity before the Disney buyout) made more money back than Solo did. The illusion of continuity counts a lot more, dollarwise, than people think.
What does Solo have to do with continuity? I don't remember there being an continuity issues in Solo.
 
What does Solo have to do with continuity? I don't remember there being an continuity issues in Solo.
I mistook Han freeing Chewie from slavery out of compassion as a canonical source, but thinking it over that never was actually confirmed. I think I'm still mixing up the Disney canon with the old one.
 
Hey that's fine if some writers want to feel that way.

I'm not speaking as a writer, I'm speaking as a consumer of fiction. I read and watch stories set in many different fictional universes, and I never need it "explained" to me why, say, a MacGyver episode, a Bugs Bunny cartoon, and a Frankenstein movie don't take place in the same reality. They're just stories. So I have never, since childhood, needed an explanation for why two different stories about the same characters and universe are not compatible with each other. It's just because they're not trying to be.

Remember, prior to 2000, it was rare for Star Trek tie-in novels to have any continuity with one another. They contradicted each other all the time. That was the norm, not the exception. That was my routine experience with Trek Lit as a reader, long before I started writing it. So I never expected two different stories to be compatible with each other as some sort of default or requirement. If it did happen, or at least if the stories didn't overtly contradict each other, then that was a bonus.

As a writer, I always try to maintain continuity in my own work. As I mentioned above, I'm proud that I've managed to keep all my Trek novels and stories consistent with one another. And I've always tried for strong continuity in my original universes, though there have been a couple of cases where I've had to make exceptions in order to correct mistakes or improve on bad ideas. Strong continuity is part of my personal style as a writer. But as a reader or viewer, I don't expect every other writer to practice the same approach to continuity, and I don't expect all the different incarnations of a given franchise to be mutually consistent with each other, because I've been reading and watching fiction for nearly half a century now and that's always been the exception rather than the rule.
 
For what it's worth, I actually think Q changing Star Trek Online will likely be the only way they can coordinate the game with the new Picard show, so what I said was actually only partially a joke...
Well, Q snapping his fingers is how we got the Movie spacedock design in STO.

Cryptic hasn't decided yet how they're going to handle Picard, they're waiting until actual story details are released.

But they haven't ruled out treating STO's story is just an alternate timeline from the Picard show.
 
Saurians are highly robust and resilient, able to survive almost anything, and rarely getting sick. The Saurians' fear of illness, due to its rarity in their society, is a plot point in Tower of Babel. But now DSC introduces a Saurian crewmember in season 2, and the first thing we learn about him is that he's fighting off a cold!

Well, just because it's rare doesn't mean they never get sick. And being in space maybe exposed the Saurian on Discovery to a bug Saurians weren't ever exposed to and were therefore more susceptible. I don't actually consider that a big deal.

You know, as much as I might gripe about continuity, it's generally on a macro level for me. I don't sweat the small stuff. Not to beat a dead horse but the spore drive really bugs me when it comes to continuity. But that's what I'd consider a macro issue. TNG adding forehead bumps to Romulan foreheads, that's what I consider a micro issue--I don't give that much thought, in fact I didn't give it any thought until I read a comment from someone complaining about them. The Klingons in Discovery I admit bug me, but that crossed over to macro for me because their appearance was so far removed from how they were previously depicted, to the point if they weren't explicitly stated to be Klingons, I probably wouldn't have guessed they were Klingons at first (whereas with the subtle changes to Romulans, Andorians and even Tellarites, it was still close enough to the original I easily knew what species they were).

I don't see the need to explain contradiction between things that are just stories.

Na ah. You and a number of your fellow authors have explained plenty of contradictions in your novels. Your DTI novels for instance even explained some inconsistencies that I honestly didn't even think of until you brought them up. Greg Cox made sense of numerous discontinuities between Space Seed and TWOK, including why Khan wears a glove and even why his troupe looks like refugees from Guns'n'Roses. And I love that sort of thing. I mean, the stories still have to be good, and they have been, but I like that you guys pick up on some of those things and provide some rationale for it. And I give you all credit for doing it in such a way that it's actually believable in story. And some of the Discovery novels have offered some explanations for some of the production design, er, alterations that we've seen (just little nuggets here and there but still).

So I do think some contradictions bug you guys at least a little bit :nyah:.
 
Oh I agree in general, I knew they were going to update everything to be acceptable to modern audiences, but I was expecting them to update the TOS designs, rather than throwing in so much new tech, and drastically different designs.
I actually like the designs and new technology we've gotten in DSC, it just feels a bit weird when you try and line it up with TOS. This also has not impacted my enjoyment of Discovery at all, I think the second season has been great so far, and I eagerly anticipate each new episode.

Yeah, I sort of was thinking along the same lines. I guess I just expected it to be a bit of a continuation of what they tried to do with Enterprise. I never expected to see the same production design as the original series. But I thought it'd look and be familiar in a futuristic sort of way.

It's one of the reasons I have a hard time seeing it as part of the primary Star Trek universe. Even the storylines just don't fit all that well IMHO. I just find it easier, and more enjoyable to view it as a reboot. And maybe I'll think that way for all the shows by the current staff. I'll just take each show as it comes, and perhaps as Discovery continues it will eventually make more sense as part of the prime universe--I'm keeping an open mind about the future on that.

But on it's own merits, when I don't try to mentally make it fit within the other Star Trek shows, I generally like it. And it does feel like a Star Trek show to me. Just because I have a lot of difficulties thinking of it as taking place at the same time as "The Cage" roughly doesn't mean I don't feel it's Star Trekky enough.
 
Unless I'm missing it, I'm a little surprised that nobody is mentioning the apparent connection between the last Disco episode and the S31 novel Control.

AI, threat assessment, it gives orders.
Its all there.
Hell, you could even fit the apparent wider knowledge of S31 during the show within what we know from Control - the book mentions that it had dissolved and reformed the organisation multiple times over its 200 year life. Figures if it has to disappear again in the 23rd century it could just wipe all knowledge of its existence from UFP records and become the much lesser known entity by DS9's time.
 
Unless I'm missing it, I'm a little surprised that nobody is mentioning the apparent connection between the last Disco episode and the S31 novel Control.

David Mack said it was a total coincidence the first time Control was mentioned. Seeing how much DSC's Control is suggestive of the novel, I think I can understand why he headed off speculation so quickly, especially if the storyline ends up going somewhere radically different.
 
Some are thinking that Control is the one that destroys Earth in the future, which means that the Angel is none other than Bashir.
That would actually be awesome. Especially since Alexander Sidding's acting has improved tenfold since DS9 and he'd be a very welcome addition to the cast.
 
Not to beat a dead horse but the spore drive really bugs me when it comes to continuity.

It bugs me too, but there have always been comparably large continuity problems within Star Trek. For instance, one more example that just occurred to me on top of all the others that have been discussed in this thread -- in TOS episodes like "Wolf in the Fold," they used a computerized sensor that could accurately determine whether a witness was lying. Plus they had psychotricorders that could, supposedly, infallibly read people's memories. So where did those profoundly powerful technologies go in the TNG era?

Take it from someone who's been a Trek fan since the '70s -- we've always been bugged by continuity conflicts between different generations/eras of Trek. It's nothing new. Trek is an imperfect creation. It always has been. But we choose to forgive its imperfections for the sake of the stuff we do like.

The Klingons in Discovery I admit bug me, but that crossed over to macro for me because their appearance was so far removed from how they were previously depicted, to the point if they weren't explicitly stated to be Klingons, I probably wouldn't have guessed they were Klingons at first (whereas with the subtle changes to Romulans, Andorians and even Tellarites, it was still close enough to the original I easily knew what species they were).

I'm surprised to hear that. First off, they had the primary defining attribute of post-1979 Klingons, prominent ridged foreheads. Plus they were speaking Klingonese, talking up a storm about Kahless and honor, giving the death howl when a comrade died, etc. I never would've recognized James Cromwell as Zefram Cochrane on sight, but sight is not the only source of information that matters.



Na ah. You and a number of your fellow authors have explained plenty of contradictions in your novels. Your DTI novels for instance even explained some inconsistencies that I honestly didn't even think of until you brought them up. Greg Cox made sense of numerous discontinuities between Space Seed and TWOK, including why Khan wears a glove and even why his troupe looks like refugees from Guns'n'Roses. And I love that sort of thing. I mean, the stories still have to be good, and they have been, but I like that you guys pick up on some of those things and provide some rationale for it. And I give you all credit for doing it in such a way that it's actually believable in story. And some of the Discovery novels have offered some explanations for some of the production design, er, alterations that we've seen (just little nuggets here and there but still).

So I do think some contradictions bug you guys at least a little bit :nyah:.

Again, I was speaking as a consumer of fiction, not as a writer. As a writer, sure, I like reconciling continuity issues, because it's an enjoyable creative exercise. But as a reader or viewer, I can understand that if two stories by different authors are not mutually compatible with each other, that's just because they're not trying to be compatible with each other, because each is telling its own story in its own way. I don't require in-story explanations before I can understand or accept the difference between the stories. I don't need it explained to me why Batman: The Brave and the Bold is in a different reality than Batman: The Animated Series, or why Sherlock is in a different reality than Elementary. They're different because they're supposed to be different, because they're not trying to be the same. Because variations on a theme are not an aberration or a mistake, but a vital aspect of human creativity. Continuity is a device used within certain stories, when it serves those stories. It's an option, not a universal mandate. Demanding that everything in fiction fit together as neatly as reality is misunderstanding how imagination works. The fact that we can imagine multiple separate possibilities is part of what makes imagination and creativity so powerful. It's an integral part of what imagination is for -- to let us model multiple possible paths before choosing the best one. So it's not a bad thing to be able to take a story in multiple contradictory directions. Discontinuity has its value as much as continuity does.

By analogy, I've always been very continuity-driven in my original fiction. I've tended to put all my stories in the same universe unless there was a reason they couldn't fit. I've tried to keep everything within each universe consistent and maintain a tight continuity with a minimum of errors or changes; to date, I've only had to change one story, my first, due to some outdated ideas. But when I've considered the question of whether I wanted to "explain" two of my universes as alternate timelines of each other, I've always ended up deciding not to, because it just didn't fit the way I defined the physics and history of those universes. They didn't need to be reconciled or made compatible with each other. It didn't benefit them in any way and would've been counterproductive, because they were built on different rules and assumptions that would've just gotten in each other's way. I love continuity, but I recognize that it isn't always a necessary or appropriate option, because sometimes it's better for stories to stand apart as separate fictional constructs. Continuity, like any tool, is not meant to be used indiscriminately. There are cases where it's the right tool for the job, and cases where it's the wrong tool for the job.
 
And I liked how DS9 added a bit of reality to the Federation---I viewed it as a government and Starfleet run by mortals who aren't perfect. They generally move in a positive direction but they make mistakes. They usually take 2 steps forward but sometimes take a step back. I liked that about DS9. It actually made things more realistic. The Federation are still the good guys, but sometimes they screw up too.

In this way, IMO, because of this DSN was much more in sync for me with TOS than TNG or the other series have been. And this is why I prefer TOS and DSN above the others as much as I do. TNG and VGR in particular tended toward a level of smugness that really turned me off. Stores about smart people who don't screw up are a hell of a lot less interesting than stores about smart people who try to do the right thing but sometimes hit the wall in doing so. Aaron Sorkin has a phrase that pops up from time to time that I love: "We did a good thing badly." TOS, DSN, The West Wing, The Newsroom, Sports Night - these are shows that I am attracted to because they have a tone that is aspirational - maybe we're doing okay, but we can do better. TNG always came off as yup, Earth's perfect now, so let's go enlighten all those pesky aliens. Blechh.

All of the above is IMO, and YMMV.

EDIT - "snugness changed to "smugness". Whoops.
 
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Hank McCoy, for example, went from teenager to renowned scientist over the course of the books.

He actually went from being a teen who had yet to enter college to someone who was already a full-fledged doctor entirely in the fallow period he wasn't appearing in any new stories (the time between X-Men becoming a reprint-only title due to low sales and him getting his solo run in Amazing Adventures). Despite that period being only two years in the real world. It's an example of the adage about how characters who aren't appearing in stories age faster than the ones than the ones who are.

Which leads into my point that...

Yistaan said:
Stan Lee put a rule in place of 3 real years to 1 Marvel year, which later got adjusted to 5 real years to 1 Marvel year in the 90s somehow. In any case, it mostly works.

It has never been anywhere close to this systematic and regular, in my opinion. Any 5-1 or 3-1 framework gets brought up almost entirely in fandom and pretty much never by the writers themselves. Some characters age gradually, some don't, and the ones that do don't age at the same rate. For example, a recent Iron Man arc hinged on him either being under 30 or only recently 30.

The Marvel universe operates in a way very similar to Discovery with its aesthetic retcons, when you think about it. Peter Parker's oldest adventures happened in the 60s, but whenever modern stories re-visit that period, there are drastic aesthetic updates, with all the clothing, styles, technology, sensibilities, and often even dialogue being updated so it can feel like it all happened in the only recent past.
 
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For instance, one more example that just occurred to me on top of all the others that have been discussed in this thread -- in TOS episodes like "Wolf in the Fold," they used a computerized sensor that could accurately determine whether a witness was lying. Plus they had psychotricorders that could, supposedly, infallibly read people's memories. So where did those profoundly powerful technologies go in the TNG era?

Yeah, I don't deny things like that. But it's sort of a contradiction I guess you can say I have. When it comes to one episode issues like that, a contradiction doesn't bug me a whole lot. I do recognize writers have to sometimes fudge things or embellish things. And I know it's impossible to remember every little detail. The writer of TNG episode "The Drumhead" for instance probably just wasn't thinking of "Wolf in the Fold" when writing the episode. "The Drumhead" would have been a significantly altered story otherwise.

So in a way I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. It crosses a certain line for me when it's something that's used over and over again. The spore drive, for instance, isn't just a one and done thing. And yes, production design is a pet peeve of mine that I have a hard time reconciling because it's something you see throughout a series. I know you say it's all about creative freedom. And I don't want to crimp someone's creative style. I just wish they had worked a bit more from the existing foundation. Production design is one of those things though you see over and over again, so I can't just poo poo it away like I could a single episode occurrence, or some minor creative embellishments.

I'm surprised to hear that. First off, they had the primary defining attribute of post-1979 Klingons, prominent ridged foreheads. Plus they were speaking Klingonese, talking up a storm about Kahless and honor, giving the death howl when a comrade died, etc.

What I mean is if you just placed a nu-Klingon on the screen without any expository information, I probably would have thought it was some new species we haven't seen before. The dialogue for one makes it clear who they are (plus the subtitles which said 'In Klingon:'---which still cracks me up since once you establish they are in fact Klingons, I figure they wouldn't be speaking Cardassian) and yes, I do give them credit for remembering the death howl and Kahless. My comment was more or less pointing out that I don't have an issue with minor embellishments, forehead lumps on Romulans, or even some of the minor changes Discovery made to Andorians. But the Klingon design was a pretty radical change.

In a way, to be honest, I would have preferred hair band Klingons (sorry, I actually kind of liked hair band Klingons) maybe with some human looking Klingons mixed in to throw a nod to the original series and Enterprise.

Again, I was speaking as a consumer of fiction, not as a writer. As a writer, sure, I like reconciling continuity issues, because it's an enjoyable creative exercise. But as a reader or viewer, I can understand that if two stories by different authors are not mutually compatible with each other, that's just because they're not trying to be compatible with each other, because each is telling its own story in its own way. I don't require in-story explanations before I can understand or accept the difference between the stories.

All right, I'll grant you that. I was partly kidding. It just seemed you were pretty nonchalant about contradictions but you go to a lot of trouble to present explanations in your books to make them work together (and other authors as well). So I figured they must bug you just a little bit. But yeah, I can also see how you guys might see it as an enjoyable challenge too---'how do I take 2 contradictions and make it work together?'
 
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