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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

People read too much into that. It was more just that, since Kirsten was on staff, she could help keep the book authors on the same page as the show in order to avoid glitches of the sort that other "first novels" like Ghost Ship and The Escape had. There was even that quote from one of the producers to the effect that "They're canon until they aren't," which was telling us up front that there was no guarantee they'd be adhered to.

Yeah, I know. It just would have been nice to see a show where everyone, tie-ins included, stayed on the same page (I don't expect 100% consistency--after all even on screen canon has been know to be contradictory from time to time). But we'll see how things go.

I guess the other thing was we're not talking about a long ago written novel, but one written pretty recently along with the show with some input by people involved with the show. It's a bit disappointing that it sounds like some of it was jettisoned (I'll have to make my own judgment when I see the 2nd season how much is irreconcilable).

I think we may see the show borrowing the occasional ideas from tie-ins (like the references to "Control" in Section 31), but not in a way that will guarantee consistency with the continuity of the tie-ins. Any ideas the show uses will be reinterpreted as needed to fit the show's purposes

As far as that goes I'm not expecting much continuity with other tie-ins for other shows. As you noted a nod here or there might be thrown in. And that's occurred from time to time in prior Trek even. I was thinking more in terms of Discovery episodes, novels and comics internally.

It is amusing in a way...sometimes we the readers are more protective of book stories then the authors. I know being in the business you know how things work and all and you all take it pretty much in stride.

But I wonder sometimes, do any authors still feel just a touch of disappointment when one of their stories is rendered moot. Say they do something that makes one or more of your Rise of the Federation books inconsistent and irreconcilable with canon. Or say the Borg reappear in the nu-TNG show rendering David Mack's Destiny trilogy impossible in canon. Is there just a little, tiny feeling of disappointment from you guys?

I imagine the reverse is probably true, if something from a book someone wrote is incorporated in canon, even if it's minor, you'd feel a bit flattered. "Hey, that's from one of my books :biggrin:"
 
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Yeah, I know. It just would have been nice to see a show where everyone, tie-ins included, stayed on the same page (I don't expect 100% consistency--after all even on screen canon has been know to be contradictory from time to time). But we'll see how things go.

Historically, tie-ins that have purported to be canonical have only really succeeded if they were written or plotted by the actual showrunners themselves, ideally after the original series had ended (so that the showrunners would be able to spare the attention to them, and so there was no other ongoing canon to contradict them). After all, creativity is a personal thing; no two creators will envision a universe in quite the same way. "Canon" is really just a shorthand for the stories told by the original creators (or their authorized successors).

Currently, Star Wars is trying to be an exception to that rule, with the Lucasfilm Story Group closely coordinating with all the creators in all media and theoretically keeping them all consistent. But that's only feasible because Disney is a huge corporation and can afford the investment of effort such an undertaking would require. And it remains to be seen whether they'll really stick to it in the long run. We've seen Easter eggs from Rebels and The Clone Wars show up in recent movies, but I don't think anything from the Disney-"canon" novels or comics has been acknowledged by a movie yet.


I guess the other thing was we're not talking about a long ago written novel, but one written pretty recently along with the show with some input by people involved with the show. It's a bit disappointing that it sounds like some of it was jettisoned (I'll have to make my own judgment when I see the 2nd season how much is irreconcilable).

Involvement by creators doesn't guarantee consistency, since creators often work in multiple different continuities. Continuity is just a storytelling device within a narrative, not a higher priority than the narrative itself. So different versions of a series in different media can require different continuities, and thus it's not always a creator's priority to reconcile those different versions. Look at, say, The Expanse. The writers of the books are part of the writing staff of the TV show that's adapting the books, but they freely make changes to the show's version of the storyline.


It is amusing in a way...sometimes we the readers are more protective of book stories then the authors. I know being in the business you know how things work and all and you all take it pretty much in stride.

You readers are watching from the audience, while we writers are directing the show from backstage. So we see the artifice of it all more clearly, and thus we aren't as invested in the "reality" of it. Or rather, we want it to feel real to the audience, but we understand that's just an illusion -- and that different versions of what we're creating have different (if overlapping) audiences, so the priority for any single version is its own internal needs, not its relationship with other versions.


But I wonder sometimes, do any authors still feel just a touch of disappointment when one of their stories is rendered moot. Say they do something that makes one or more of your Rise of the Federation books inconsistent and irreconcilable with canon. Or say the Borg reappear in the nu-TNG show rendering David Mack's Destiny trilogy impossible in canon. Is there just a little, tiny feeling of disappointment from you guys?

Oh, yes, definitely. I pride myself on the fact that all of my published Trek works are consistent with one another and are all still part of the overall novel continuity (although that wouldn't be the case if my Kelvin-timeline novel had been published). I know I'll be disappointed when that streak inevitably comes to an end. But that's the occupational hazard of any science fiction writer -- eventually, real scientific advances or the march of time will render all our conjectures obsolete.

What will help ease the inevitable disappointment is my original fiction. Star Trek is fun to play with, but it's someone else's toy that I just get to borrow. So I don't get to do everything I'd want to do with it (though I'm amazed at how many of my wishes I have gotten to fulfill). But my original universes are all mine to do with as I please. And their continuities don't change unless I decide they need to. I've gotten more of my original fiction into print in recent years, with more to follow, so if that continues, it should help ease the disappointment when new TV Trek finally invalidates some of my Trek fiction.


I imagine the reverse is probably true, if something from a book someone wrote is incorporated in canon, even if it's minor, you'd feel a bit flattered. "Hey, that's from one of my books :biggrin:"

I think that's already happened once. Discovery has described Saru as a "first contact specialist," which may have been based on the term "contact specialist" that I coined in my novels for Deanna Troi's role on the Titan and T'Ryssa Chen's on the Enterprise.
 
You readers are watching from the audience, while we writers are directing the show from backstage. So we see the artifice of it all more clearly, and thus we aren't as invested in the "reality" of it.
That's why the late Stan Lee, despite disputes on how much his 60s work was him and how much was Kirby/Ditko's, was really special. Stan Lee pushed for continuity and to make the Marvel universe feel real to the readers. He engaged them with letters. He melded Marvel's superheroes into one continuous world, giving prizes to Marvel staff who caught continuity errors and fixed them.

Jack Kirby's contributions were enormous, but by most accounts he didn't really focus on connecting the stories together and continuity. Steve Ditko basically kept to himself till he died and didn't talk to the audience or go to conventions or anything.

Stan Lee knew the "artifice" of the Marvel universe firsthand, but that didn't stop him from trying to keep the illusion going as long as possible. And considering how, say, the recent X-Men Extermination storyline literally is closely tied to Uncanny X-Men #4 back in 1964, I say they did a good job.

Compare this to DC, where the staff stopped trying to connect things after Crisis on Infinite Earths and, from my point of view, is why Marvel tends to get my money more often than DC.

The audience gets its an illusion. But they don't pay to have writers make little attempts to hide it anymore than anyone pays for a lazy stage magician who stops trying because "it's all an illusion anyway".

Look at Solo over on Star Wars. Even the worst of the prequel films, even the Clone Wars movie (when Star Wars was all one continuity before the Disney buyout) made more money back than Solo did. The illusion of continuity counts a lot more, dollarwise, than people think.
 
That's why the late Stan Lee, despite disputes on how much his 60s work was him and how much was Kirby/Ditko's, was really special. Stan Lee pushed for continuity and to make the Marvel universe feel real to the readers. He engaged them with letters. He melded Marvel's superheroes into one continuous world, giving prizes to Marvel staff who caught continuity errors and fixed them.

Yeah, but it's the kind of continuity where the characters are the same age today that they were 40 years ago and the details of the backstory keep getting rewritten and updated even while the overall events remain part of the canon. It's not the kind of impossibly perfect, absolutely consistent continuity that some fans today seem to expect.


Compare this to DC, where the staff stopped trying to connect things after Crisis on Infinite Earths...

They didn't really, though. The thing about DC's continuity reboots is that they all happened in-universe as the result of cosmic forces or in-story characters actually altering the history of the universe. And so the changes themselves are part of a larger meta-narrative, and thus elements from the older continuities can come back into play in the current version of history. Right now, DC's in the middle of a storyline revealing that the "New 52" reboot from several years back was the result of Watchmen's Dr. Manhattan rewriting the DC Universe, and now elements from the earlier post-Crisis continuity are being written back into the universe's history, and the continuity reboot itself is an integral part of the story being told. It's meta as hell.


Look at Solo over on Star Wars. Even the worst of the prequel films, even the Clone Wars movie (when Star Wars was all one continuity before the Disney buyout) made more money back than Solo did. The illusion of continuity counts a lot more, dollarwise, than people think.

Yes, but there's the ideal and there's the attainable. Continuity is good, but expecting it to be maintained absolutely perfectly across a franchise spanning more than 50 years and created by numerous different artists is just not realistic. That's why long-running franchises tend to prioritize consistency with their recent past over consistency with their distant past. That way, you still get an illusion that's satisfying enough for most of the current audience, since they won't necessarily be as familiar with the stuff that was made half a century ago.
 
Yeah, but it's the kind of continuity where the characters are the same age today that they were 40 years ago
I'm not sure if we're reading the same comic books, because the X-Men were billed as the strangest teens of all time and the original 5 students haven't been teens in some time. Hank McCoy, for example, went from teenager to renowned scientist over the course of the books.

If you mean that, say Bruce Banner is still 20+ now as he was in the 60s, there's no dialogue that even remotely indicates that.

Stan Lee put a rule in place of 3 real years to 1 Marvel year, which later got adjusted to 5 real years to 1 Marvel year in the 90s somehow. In any case, it mostly works.

Franklin Richards hasn't been a baby in some time either.

Kitty Pryde aged from 13 in the 1980 comics to a young adult today in the current ones old enough to lead a school.

Nothing remotely indicates that Marvel characters are the exact same age as they were 40 years ago, as the examples I cited show.
 
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^Oh, stop being so damn literal, you know what I meant. The point is not the exact figures, the point is that the continuity has been rewritten over time while pretending to be a continuous whole.
 
^Oh, stop being so damn literal, you know what I meant. Peter Parker was 15 years old in 1961, and now he's mid-20s.
I wrote out how Marvel time is different from real time (5 years to 1 Marvel year) and your post was unclear if you were aware of that.

So Peter Parker, would roughly be 32 years old now (taking into account when they shifted from the 3-1 rule to 5-1 rule) and I haven't seen anything contradict that. He never states his exact age.

Also, this sort of language isn't necessary. :(
 
Involvement by creators doesn't guarantee consistency, since creators often work in multiple different continuities. Continuity is just a storytelling device within a narrative, not a higher priority than the narrative itself.

Yeah. I mean, I sometimes get obsessive about discontinuities. And part of me would love if there was some overall 'series bible' that helped keep at least the overall storyline consistent (Memory Alpha is a useful resource of course and I've seen a lot of people give them a shout out sometimes). But I also realize that's unrealistic, probably something that would have had to have been done from the start and everyone that worked on it from then on would have had to agree to use that basis in future works. Star Wars came close to something like that from what I understand, with them trying as much as possible to keep things consistent. But I guess a lot of that is shot out the window now.

And as I keep reminding myself it is purely entertainment. Worlds won't collide because David Mack's "Desperate Hours" was contradicted, at least in part.

You readers are watching from the audience, while we writers are directing the show from backstage. So we see the artifice of it all more clearly, and thus we aren't as invested in the "reality" of it.

I guess that sort of goes back to something Greg Cox said some time ago when I had asked if authors ever read their own books down the road at some point. He indicated by the time a book is published an author has been through so many outlines, edits, etc. that it's hard to read a prior book he wrote just for the fun of it. And that makes sense. It's probably like what some cooks have said about not always liking the things they make or musicians sometimes having a hard time listening to their own works. An author is probably their own worse critic too.

Oh, yes, definitely. I pride myself on the fact that all of my published Trek works are consistent with one another and are all still part of the overall novel continuity

What will help ease the inevitable disappointment is my original fiction

It's good to know you guys get disappointed too. In a way you're Enterprise books are probably reasonably safe (well except maybe some of the Section 31 stuff) since none of the upcoming shows are expected to take place in that timeframe. But I imagine you're 24th century novels and maybe the DTI stories might be at risk by the nu-TNG show. But I know a lot of our authors have varying interests, which is good I think. It's usually a good thing to have varied interests.
 
Not sure if you're just joking, but if you've been around these boards you've had to see much harsher language than that :shrug:
I'm not joking. Strangely enough I haven't seen harsher language here.

My profile says I've only been here less than a year, that might be why. (Yet I'm already a "Captain" rank on the forums, I obviously take after Kelvin timeline Kirk. Or my Star Trek Online character).
 
I'm not joking. Strangely enough I haven't seen harsher language here.

My profile says I've only been here less than a year, that might be why. (Yet I'm already a "Captain" rank on the forums, I obviously take after Kelvin timeline Kirk. Or my Star Trek Online character).

Oh yeah. I've seen the f-bomb from time to time. While I'm no saint and have uttered the f-word from time to time (usually when angry about something) I never felt comfortable typing it out. But it doesn't really phase me when others use bad language (partly because I don't have a clean mouth so it's hard for me to criticize others for it). But the d-word is pretty mild.

As for the ranks, you do move up pretty quickly initially. But it slows down a bit. I've been a Fleet Captain for a while now. I don't pay a lot of attention to it, except when I get 'promoted' maybe :nyah:
 
They didn't really, though. The thing about DC's continuity reboots is that they all happened in-universe as the result of cosmic forces or in-story characters actually altering the history of the universe. And so the changes themselves are part of a larger meta-narrative, and thus elements from the older continuities can come back into play in the current version of history. .

One neat example of this was that Darkseid created the post-crisis Parasite because he remembered the pre-crisis one...
 
In a way you're Enterprise books are probably reasonably safe (well except maybe some of the Section 31 stuff) since none of the upcoming shows are expected to take place in that timeframe.

Actually I think there's already a small continuity conflict with my ENT novels. My version of the Saurians in those novels is based on Robert Fletcher's notes about the various alien species from ST:TMP, including the idea that the Saurians are highly robust and resilient, able to survive almost anything, and rarely getting sick. The Saurians' fear of illness, due to its rarity in their society, is a plot point in Tower of Babel. But now DSC introduces a Saurian crewmember in season 2, and the first thing we learn about him is that he's fighting off a cold!

The thing people keep forgetting is that continuity in science fiction isn't just about discrete events that can be localized to a specific time -- it can be about basic worldbuilding details that apply to any timeframe, like the nature of a particular planet or species. So it's entirely possible for a series to contradict books set in earlier centuries. Heck, the 24th-century continuity established by TNG ended up contradicting the 23rd-century continuity of the '80s TOS novels, largely by portraying Klingon and Romulan cultures in incompatible ways and by revealing contradictory information about Federation history.
 
One neat example of this was that Darkseid created the post-crisis Parasite because he remembered the pre-crisis one...
In the end though, the DC plots depend more in investment of the universe instead of the characters. It's not like Marvel, where Wolverine can still be seething over Mariko's death that happened 20 years ago in the real world.

Character motivations change so drastically. One day Batman knows Joe Chill kills his parents, another day he doesn't know who did it. There are actually 4 canon different Batmen (Earth Two Batman from 1939-1955, Earth One Batman from 1955-1985, New Earth Batman from 1985-2011, Prime Earth Batman from 2011-present)

Damian Wayne being born isn't even kept straight. One throwaway line said Talia outright assaulted Batman, which was jarring in the fact that such an incident would likely be mentioned more often and cause trauma to Batman on par with Jason Todd's death.
 
Dude - when someone explains an obscure one line reference from 1986 - do you think they need an explanation of how DC canon works?

There are actually 4 canon different Batmen (Earth Two Batman from 1939-1955, Earth One Batman from 1955-1985, New Earth Batman from 1985-2011, Prime Earth Batman from 2011-present)

You missed Earth-B (all three versions).
 
Look at Solo over on Star Wars. Even the worst of the prequel films, even the Clone Wars movie (when Star Wars was all one continuity before the Disney buyout) made more money back than Solo did. The illusion of continuity counts a lot more, dollarwise, than people think.

I think it was more due to the fact it was released so close to TLJ and a couple other big films.

It has apparently sold very well on DVD/Blu-Ray.
 
It is amusing in a way...sometimes we the readers are more protective of book stories then the authors. I know being in the business you know how things work and all and you all take it pretty much in stride.

Yep. Funny story: The third Underworld movie pretty much wipes out an original UW prequel I wrote right after the first movie came out. To be honest, I think this troubled my editor more than me, or that he was worried that I would be more bothered by it, when he first called to discussing novelizing Rise of the Lycans. I remember cutting to the chase:

"Are you asking me if I would have any problems writing a book that completely contradicts my previous book? Rest assured, I only have two issues: how much are you offering and when is the deadline?" :)
 
"Are you asking me if I would have any problems writing a book that completely contradicts my previous book? Rest assured, I only have two issues: how much are you offering and when is the deadline?" :)
Hey as a reader contradictions are fine by me as long as they're acknowledged and an explanation given. Even if that explanation is Q snapped his fingers and changed it. ;)
 
Hey as a reader contradictions are fine by me as long as they're acknowledged and an explanation given. Even if that explanation is Q snapped his fingers and changed it. ;)

I remember at least one distraught review on Amazon, in all caps no less:

"GREG COX, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!"

What can I say, the movies and TV shows trump the books. That's just how it works.
 
I remember at least one distraught review on Amazon, in all caps no less:

"GREG COX, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!"

What can I say, the movies and TV shows trump the books. That's just how it works.
For what it's worth, I actually think Q changing Star Trek Online will likely be the only way they can coordinate the game with the new Picard show, so what I said was actually only partially a joke...
 
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