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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

Discovery is in kind of a weird situation, with it showing us all sorts of super advanced technology, but then trying to convince it takes place shortly before the much more primitive TOS. Honestly, at this point I try to just not think about it to much and just go along with whatever Discovery shows us.
Even though I'm really enjoying Discovery, I still think setting it before TOS was a bit mistake. Pretty much all of the problems, at least from a visual perspective, could have easily been avoided if they just set it after Nemesis.
 
TV shows are not technical manuals and don't come with blueprints. The dramatic point of the Enterprise's (brief) appearance on DISCO was "Oh boy, it's the Enterprise!"

But it's weird. It's weird that "The Expanse" put San Francisco's Transamerica tower into the UN complex in New York. It was weird when "The Dark Knight Rises" used so many recognizable New York landmarks when the establishing shots of the earlier two films had avoided being overtly recognizable as a real America city. And, yes, it's weird when it looks like the Enterprise has been put in a panini press to make it sleeker while a note-perfect arrangement of the original theme plays despite not sounding like any of DSC's other scoring. It was the show's entire discordance between "Not your parents' Star Trek!" and "The same Star Trek you know and love!" summed up in fifteen seconds.

Why is the ship 25% different to match Discovery's look, while the music is 100% the same to tap into your old memories? Why make the main character a close relative of one of the most striking figures of American pop culture, and set it up so they'll never meet (a case of "two wrongs making a right" in that case, given how much Spock's shadow looms over the second season now that he's actually showing up. And it's had nothing to do with anything about Spock as a person, just that he's an Important Star Trek Element. Imagine a new character being treated the way Spock is. Heck, imagine Scotty being treated the way Spock is)? Why does the show put a devastating galactic war into the living memory of the entire TOS cast, and then gratuitously mention all the holograms are being removed in case it's too dissonant for us to think there's something that exists in the world that we see no indication of next time we watch a TOS rerun?
 
YMMV, I guess. I didn't experience any cognitive dissidence when the Enterprise showed up at the end of Season One, partly because I was caught up in the plot and the excitement of them running into Pike, and, honestly, because it looked enough like the old Enterprise enough to be immediately recognizable to me. I wasn't counting the decks or comparing it to some old screen captures from "The Cage."

And when was it ever stated that Burnham and Spock could never meet? Hell, they teamed up in the very first DISCO novel which came around the same time the show debuted. And, yes, I know the books are not "canon," but that suggests that Spock was never intended to be off-limits or whatever.

The shows takes place at a point where we know Spock is serving with Pike, so why not use him, why not give him a sister? It's a STAR TREK show. You expect connections to STAR TREK. And of course they're going to use Spock instead of, say, Janice Rand because Spock is and has always been one of Trek's most famous characters, and Burnham gives you a whole new angle so you're not just retreading the same old ground where Spock and Vulcans are concerned. It's new and familiar . . . which is the needle any successful revival needs to thread if it wants to attract enough eyeballs to survive.

You just have to remember that these are TV shows , not historical documents, and allow for a certain degree of artistic license. Believe it or not, I can still watch TOS episodes without any "dissonance" because I understand that, in real life, they were filmed fifty-plus years ago, long before DISCO was a gleam in anybody's eyes. I don't expect it to look like DISCO any more than I would worry about why some BEWITCHED episodes are in color and some are black-and-white . . . or expect an in-universe explanation for the change. :)

Time changes. Art direction changes. Production values change. That's just how it goes.

It's theater, not an encyclopedia.
 
Are discoverys cosmetic differences any worse than the actual functional difference of losing tas's life support belts in the movies and tng and other shows?

Not to mention TNG abandoning the movies' security armor and seat restraints.


Except we only know those numbers from secondary sources. On screen, the Enterprise is just a big shiny object in space whose precise dimensions are never discussed or relevant to the plot. ...
It's precise technical specs are just trivia that have nothing to do with the crisis at hand.

Exactly. Stories are about characters, events, ideas, and emotions. They're not about numbers and shapes. Consistency and continuity in fiction is about whether the characters' experiences have a lasting effect on them and whether established events, species, planets, etc. are consistently acknowledged. Stuff like visual design is incidental to that, and so it doesn't matter if it changes, any more than it matters that two different artists on a comic book draw the characters and their city in completely different ways. That's just artistic license and individual style.


Discovery is in kind of a weird situation, with it showing us all sorts of super advanced technology, but then trying to convince it takes place shortly before the much more primitive TOS.

But TOS was never meant to look "primitive." It was meant to be super-futuristic; it's just that they were limited in how well they could portray that with '60s resources. As I've mentioned a couple of times in recent weeks, The Making of Star Trek asserted that the Enterprise did have holographic entertainment and communications systems, even if we never saw them. The tech was supposed to be more advanced than what we were shown. So updating the way it looks, making it more futuristic, is actually being true to the spirit of the original work, if not the letter. The creators of TOS would've been the first to say that its look should always be updated to appear futuristic to its viewers, because that's the impression they wanted to create. That's why TMP changed the look wholesale.


YMMV, I guess. I didn't experience any cognitive dissidence when the Enterprise showed up at the end of Season One, partly because I was caught up in the plot and the excitement of them running into Pike, and, honestly, because it looked enough like the old Enterprise enough to be immediately recognizable to me. I wasn't counting the decks or comparing it to some old screen captures from "The Cage."

I don't get why people get more upset about reinterpreting a ship design than they do about recasting a character. If Harry Mudd can look like Rainn Wilson, why the hell can't a starship look different too?
 
I don't get why people get more upset about reinterpreting a ship design than they do about recasting a character. If Harry Mudd can look like Rainn Wilson, why the hell can't a starship look different too?

Exactly. The Search for Spock is not set in a different timeline than The Wrath of Khan just because Kirstie Alley morphed into Robin Curtis, just like DISCO is not in separate timeline than TOS just because they "recast" the Enterprise fifty-plus years later.

And, yes, back in the day, TOS was not supposed to be a retro period piece. It was intended to look cool and futuristic, so DISCO has to tweak things to achieve the same effect in 2018.

Again, this is theater. It's about recreating the effect, not the actual sets and props.
 
I’ve said since Discovery began, I never expected a show produced in the late 2010s to hold itself to a vision of the future from the 1960s. The concept of the future and what it would bring has changed drastically in those fifty years - we use technology that wasn’t in any way thought up by the audience when Star Trek premiered. Our ideas of what makes something look futuristic has changed since then, and I always thought it would have been a burden on Discovery to have them try to hold to the TOS aesthetic fifty years later and still be taken seriously by a modern audience.

Sure, when Star Trek has previously gone back, they’ve recreated the settings, because those were tributes to nostalgia. Discovery was going to live there. That’s an entirely different beast.
 
Sure, when Star Trek has previously gone back, they’ve recreated the settings, because those were tributes to nostalgia. Discovery was going to live there. That’s an entirely different beast.

That's well-said. Although I'd add that it was as much practicality as nostalgia. The first time was in TNG: "Relics," and they didn't have the budget to rebuild the entire bridge set, so they had to combine stock footage of the empty bridge from "Tomorrow is Yesterday" with a single rebuilt wedge of the bridge and a replica command chair and helm console borrowed from a fan reconstruction, IIRC. Therefore, they had no choice but to match the look of TOS. Similarly, in "Trials and Tribble-ations," the whole idea was about using Forrest Gump-style compositing to insert DS9 characters into TOS footage. And by the time they got to "In a Mirror, Darkly," they were finally able to rebuild the sets more fully, but I think that was partly because the art staff had already been expanding on the previous set pieces in their spare time for fun, so it was an extension of what they'd done before. It's a different matter with the new films and show where they're starting completely from scratch.
 
Going back to the topic of this thread, I didn't see anything directly contradicting Desperate Hours in this latest episode. It was never stated Spock never saw Burnham between childhood and Discovery.
 
Sure, when Star Trek has previously gone back, they’ve recreated the settings, because those were tributes to nostalgia. Discovery was going to live there. That’s an entirely different beast.
And by the time they got to "In a Mirror, Darkly," they were finally able to rebuild the sets more fully, but I think that was partly because the art staff had already been expanding on the previous set pieces in their spare time for fun, so it was an extension of what they'd done before. It's a different matter with the new films and show where they're starting completely from scratch.

Yeah, I do agree with that. I never actually expected Discovery to look like "The Cage". I would have liked a bit more consistency, I've made no secret about that, but I never expected it to appear like "The Cage"-----though I won't lie, there is a little part of me that would have loved that. Even though I didn't expect that, I'll admit I'd eat it up :lol:. But I knew in reality that wasn't going to happen. I know it's a different thing when you're talking about an entire series as opposed to a single episode or two.

It worked for "In a Mirror, Darkly" because it was a one time thing. And I think part of it was the productions designers having a little fun. I got the impression they were itching to rebuild original series sets, so some of it was probably them indulging themselves a bit. And I loved the fact that while they rebuilt the original series sets, they still used modern special effects. It gave us a peak at what a Constitution class was really capable of, and it showed us that yes, it was more advanced than an NX class ship. And it was something else I liked about that episode. While intellectually we knew the NCC-1701 was more advanced, it appeared less so...and this particular episode put that to rest, at least IMO. Maybe it didn't 'appear' more advanced, but appearances were deceiving.
 
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YMMV, I guess. I didn't experience any cognitive dissidence when the Enterprise showed up at the end of Season One, partly because I was caught up in the plot and the excitement of them running into Pike, and, honestly, because it looked enough like the old Enterprise enough to be immediately recognizable to me. I wasn't counting the decks or comparing it to some old screen captures from "The Cage."

Well, I thought that scene was terrible, but I assure you, I would've thought it was just as terrible if they'd pulled the 11-foot model out of the Smithsonian and filmed that. However, the fact they didn't (you know, metaphorically) contributed to my feeling that the show was flailing badly with that ending. Nobody seems to know what Discovery is supposed to be, where it's going, what its themes or interests are. A show that knew what it was about would not end its season two minutes early, spend ninety seconds standing awkwardly with its hands in its pockets, then say, "Oh, look, the Enterprise! They're probably doing something interesting! We'll figure out what that is and get back to you, see you next year!" and then cut to black, and a show that had a healthy relationship with its forebearers wouldn't be updated for modern audiences visually at the same moment it was going full-retro homage on the soundtrack. It's not about Discovery not matching with TOS, it's about Discovery not matching with itself.

Look at the opening to tonight's episode ("If Memory Serves," for people reading the thread in the future), and then the episode itself, for another perfect example of what I'm talking about. Is Star Trek ridiculous camp that occasionally stumbles upon profundity, or Serious Business that knows how to have fun? I have an answer, you have an answer, they're probably different, and that's fine. The problem is that Discovery doesn't have an answer. I'm not sure it even understands that there's a question.

And when was it ever stated that Burnham and Spock could never meet? Hell, they teamed up in the very first DISCO novel which came around the same time the show debuted. And, yes, I know the books are not "canon," but that suggests that Spock was never intended to be off-limits or whatever.

That's exactly what it suggests. Why would the Bryan Fuller propose a premise for a novel that he anticipated using on the show? The whole idea was to keep the tie-ins out from underfoot by having them do things the show wouldn't or couldn't. If the show had expected to explore Burnham and Spock's relationship in any detail, at all, ever during the run of the show, that's the last thing they'd ask for a novel about, since it'd be asking for early-installment weirdness that was destined to be contradicted.

The shows takes place at a point where we know Spock is serving with Pike, so why not use him, why not give him a sister? It's a STAR TREK show. You expect connections to STAR TREK. And of course they're going to use Spock instead of, say, Janice Rand because Spock is and has always been one of Trek's most famous characters, and Burnham gives you a whole new angle so you're not just retreading the same old ground where Spock and Vulcans are concerned. It's new and familiar . . . which is the needle any successful revival needs to thread if it wants to attract enough eyeballs to survive.

I'm pretty sure all Star Trek: Discovery needs to attract enough eyeballs to survive in the streaming age is the first eight letters of the title, for better or worse. And there was a time when a Star Trek show could get a jump-start on the strength of the premise, or even the brand, to get really commercial. That time, of course, being about fourteen months ago.

I don't have an objection to Michael being Spock's foster sister. My problem is that that became the thin edge of the wedge in turning Discovery into the Young Spock Show, and it certainly looks like that happened because somebody thought that since audiences like Spock, he should be the most important person in space (insert Christopher's point about confusing what the audience thinks with what the characters think here) so people will tune in, and not because there was a new story that had to be told about Spock and they just couldn't let it pass by.

You just have to remember that these are TV shows , not historical documents, and allow for a certain degree of artistic license. Believe it or not, I can still watch TOS episodes without any "dissonance" because I understand that, in real life, they were filmed fifty-plus years ago, long before DISCO was a gleam in anybody's eyes. I don't expect it to look like DISCO any more than I would worry about why some BEWITCHED episodes are in color and some are black-and-white . . . or expect an in-universe explanation for the change. :)

Great, so neither of us would've squandered half of Rebecca Romijn's first appearance on "Why are there no holograms in TOS?"

Again, my point is you can be slavish or you can be revisionist, and there are merits and drawbacks to both, but for Pete's sake, just pick one and stick with it.
 
Great, so neither of us would've squandered half of Rebecca Romijn's first appearance on "Why are there no holograms in TOS?"
My retcon before that scene was that there always were holograms, just that they were visible only to the officer at that station (the holograms on Sulu's console would only be visible to him sitting on that chair, not broadcast across the bridge and over the viewscreens where the Klingons can see it).
 
So in tonight's episode Control is specifically, explicitly defined as an AI. At this point if it isn't a reference it's one hell of a coincidence. However, the preview for next week shows us a Section 31 "headquarters" so if the writers intend to diverge from "Control" (the novel) I would expect that to be the episode where it happens. OTOH, if they destroy the S31 headquarters and some S31 agent mentions how Control is in the protected archives at Memory Alpha and Memory Omega...

(I know in the S31 novels L'Haan tries to figure out who Control is while in Disco they are talking about Control and S31 like it is common knowledge but with a hundred years in between and the influence of creatures that have been shown as capable of taking over an AI, it's possible S31 withdrew to the shadows as a result of Disco's events. As ever, we shall see.)
 
Despite the name of this thread, it seemingly is in no way a place to come to read and take part in discussion about the Discovery novels...
 
Despite the name of this thread, it seemingly is in no way a place to come to read and take part in discussion about the Discovery novels...

I think it was meant to be more about discussing how new information revealed in Discovery might affect the novel continuity going forward, but DSC novels are part of that too. You're right -- it would be nice to get back to that topic rather than rehashing the same old "Is the show that's explicitly presented as Prime continuity actually Prime continuity or not?" argument for the five hundredth time.

So here's my question, spoiler-boxed just in case:
Can the season's revelations about Pike and Talos IV be reconciled with Burning Dreams? How about Early Voyages?
 
It makes the more out-there additions they haven't walked back stick out more, and also makes me a little suspicious that things like Burnham's relationship the the family Sarek and Section 31 just being a wacky nickname for Starfleet Intelligence are going to be tied off in a similar "and let us never speak of this again" type way. It's "The Good That Men Do" over and over again,

Kurtzman has said that we’ll find out why S31 become the S31 we saw in DS9.

And last nights episode give a good reason why Spock never mentioned Michael (other than the fact he doesn’t talk about family)
 
I think it was meant to be more about discussing how new information revealed in Discovery might affect the novel continuity going forward, but DSC novels are part of that too. You're right -- it would be nice to get back to that topic rather than rehashing the same old "Is the show that's explicitly presented as Prime continuity actually Prime continuity or not?" argument for the five hundredth time.

So here's my question, spoiler-boxed just in case:
Can the season's revelations about Pike and Talos IV be reconciled with Burning Dreams? How about Early Voyages?

Yeah, but you know how it goes on these threads. Esp. once that has reached 84 pages. We seem to have a tendency to meander around from topic to topic after a while.

But yeah, I'm guilty of rehashing my old arguments myself. I'll try not to make the 501'st argument about Discovery and Continuity. ;)

I will say I've enjoyed all 4 of the Discovery novels thus far, with "Drastic Measures" being my favorite so far. But I enjoyed the last book quite a bit as well. It was sort of a coming of age story, but it was written well. It's a bit disappointing to read that at least some elements of "Desperate Hours" have been overwritten by the show. I had really thought for Discovery that an attempt was going to be made to keep an overall continuity between books, the show and comics. I know that the tie-ins in the past have never been given much consideration, but it seemed this time they were trying to minimize contradictions as much as possible. I guess we'll see how it plays out in the future. Do we go back to the old days where tie-ins are given little consideration, or is there still at least some coordination between the groups?
 
So here's my question, spoiler-boxed just in case:
Can the season's revelations about Pike and Talos IV be reconciled with Burning Dreams? How about Early Voyages?

I was thinking it could work with Burning Dreams up until Vina appeared directly to Pike. Given the theme in Burning Dreams that Pike is haunted by his memories of Vina after the events of "The Cage," it seems like something too big to have been overlooked.

However, I look at all of Star Trek as a "history" being explored in an even further-off future. The television episodes and films represent the primary source material with novels and short stories being secondary "research." Since Burning Dreams was written well before "If Memory Serves," I'll simply look at it as a work produced by an author/scholar who was unaware of an incident that had not yet been researched or publicized.
 
I had really thought for Discovery that an attempt was going to be made to keep an overall continuity between books, the show and comics.

People read too much into that. It was more just that, since Kirsten was on staff, she could help keep the book authors on the same page as the show in order to avoid glitches of the sort that other "first novels" like Ghost Ship and The Escape had. There was even that quote from one of the producers to the effect that "They're canon until they aren't," which was telling us up front that there was no guarantee they'd be adhered to.

So they were more like something along the lines of the Star Trek Chronology -- conjecture that could be treated as valid until and unless the screen canon decided to disregard it (as they did with the STC's initial conjecture of the date of Cochrane's first warp flight or the end of the 5-year mission). This is all just fiction, and creativity is a process of rethinking and reassessment, so things are always subject to change -- even core canon itself sometimes.


Do we go back to the old days where tie-ins are given little consideration, or is there still at least some coordination between the groups?

I think we may see the show borrowing the occasional ideas from tie-ins (like the references to "Control" in Section 31), but not in a way that will guarantee consistency with the continuity of the tie-ins. Any ideas the show uses will be reinterpreted as needed to fit the show's purposes. Tie-ins exist to support the thing they tie into. The needs of the core work always take priority.
 
I was reading Memory-Alpha's page on 'Desperate Hours' and came across this tidbit

Burnham's backstory regarding the fact that it was her request that forced her parents to stay on Doctari Alpha due to a desire to see a nearby star go supernova was a tidbit first revealed in the novel before subsequently being mentioned in canon in DIS: "Will You Take My Hand?".

I never noticed that, neat.
 
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