Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Christopher]

Could the holodeck create a fictional character just from analyzing stories that have been written about them?

Or would it need a living example?

Well, any simulation of a living person is going to have to be modeled on data about living people. If a prose story describes a character as "a short, slender, dark-haired woman," the computer's going to have to extrapolate a ton of other details somehow, so it'd probably have to draw on examples of real people who fit those descriptions and do some kind of statistical estimate or randomization or whatever to select other attributes. Or, a living person could create a holoprogram based on that story and cast actors in the roles to use as templates as I've been saying. Both hypothetically could be done, but a holocharacter modeled on a living actor's performance would probably feel more lifelike and convincing than one simulated purely by computer algorithms, just as sampled instruments sound more real than synthesized ones.

 

[Tuskin38]

Recreating real people feels like it could have ethical problems

 

[Christopher]

Recreating real people feels like it could have ethical problems

Which is why there's such a thing as likeness rights. Presumably actors who worked as holocharacter models would license their image and voice for use, like actors and models do today. There presumably wouldn't be money involved, but it could be something like a Creative Commons license. And there'd probably be some parameters built into the license pertaining to how it would be used -- for instance, some models might be willing to permit the use of their body images in erotic simulations while others would refuse to allow that.

Or, the computer could do something analogous to performance capture -- base the performance of the character on recordings of real people's speech, body language, mannerisms, personalities, etc. but alter the facial features and voice enough that it wouldn't be a specific person's likeness. It doesn't have to be an exact copy from life, it just has to use data from real live people as the starting point, in order to get realistic texture and detail.

 

[ryan123450]

I’d estimate that 20 pages of this thread are about Discovery. So more to the point...

Anything in any previous works about Pike being a test pilot originally?

 

[The Wormhole]

Recreating real people feels like it could have ethical problems

According to Geordi in Hollow Pursuits, there are no rules against it.

 

[Christopher]

According to Geordi in Hollow Pursuits, there are no rules against it.

Not at the time, but maybe some were put in place after abuses like Barclay's were reported. Also, he only said he didn't think there were any regulations (i.e. Starfleet rules) against it, so we don't know about civilian law on the subject.

 

[David cgc]

I’d estimate that 20 pages of this thread are about Discovery. So more to the point...

Anything in any previous works about Pike being a test pilot originally?

I don't think so, but if I remember my canon, fanon, and novel backstory correctly, we're now four-for-five on series-lead white-guy captains coming from a helm/piloting background. At least, I'm pretty sure that's generally the job young Kirk gets, then in "Booby Trap" and "In Theory," Picard insisted on doing tricky piloting personally (though in both cases, it could've been a "the buck stops here" thing and not a "best person for the job" thing, though you'd think the highly-evolved 24th century ego would rule out the former), and Archer, of course, was also a test pilot. Lorca (or, at least, Prime Lorca) came from security (based on "Drastic Measures"), Sisko had an engineering background, and Janeway and probably Georgiou were science officers.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

It’s not entirely surprising, though, since it’s been consistent that helm officers have been wearing the command uniform colors all through the franchise. Sulu became a Captain too, so it seems like a common track for the pilots to come up through, because there’s already overlap with command.

 

[Tim Thomason]

According to Brother, a few episodes ago, Pike won the Rigel Cup. So, at least at the Academy, he was an award-winning sublight pilot.

 

[Yistaan]

According to Brother, a few episodes ago, Pike won the Rigel Cup. So, at least at the Academy, he was an award-winning sublight pilot.

Maybe doing a Kolvoord Starburst with Georgiou :O . Hey, might as well add on to the reckless, party style reputation began with the "drinking under the table" line.

 

[Leto_II]

We evidently got a FASA RPG reference in this latest episode:

In 2257, the coordinates of Talos IV were noted as 749 Mark 148. (DIS: "Light and Shadows")

The digits of these coordinates are given in the FASA RPG book The Federation on page 31, where they are instead arranged as 7.49S 1.48E, placing the star group 74.9 parsecs to the south and 14.8 to the east of the center of Federation space.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Talos_IV

 

[Serin117]

According to Geordi in Hollow Pursuits, there are no rules against it.

Gotta be one of those things they retcon if the subject ever comes up again.
I just cannot imagine the UFP would be ok with that kind of breach of privacy and an individuals right to control their own image.
Even today when an model goes to have their full body scan for animation/games they have to sign a release for the use of their 3d image under pre-defined circumstances.

Maybe Starfleet has some exception to this, but Geordi's still a creeper for what he did.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe Starfleet has some exception to this, but Geordi's still a creeper for what he did.

If you mean "Booby Trap," that wasn't really Geordi's fault; he just created an expert program to advise him on an engineering problem, extrapolated from Leah Brahms's published writings and public speeches, and his attraction to the hologram and its flirtation with him were unexpected and spontaneous (I suspect maybe a bit of the Bynars' Minuet programming lingered in the holodeck systems and contributed to the Leah hologram's inviting behavior). It didn't become creepy until "Galaxy's Child" later on, when he met the real Leah Brahms, expected her to be like the program, and got upset when she wasn't.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Gotta be one of those things they retcon if the subject ever comes up again.
I just cannot imagine the UFP would be ok with that kind of breach of privacy and an individuals right to control their own image.
Even today when an model goes to have their full body scan for animation/games they have to sign a release for the use of their 3d image under pre-defined circumstances.

Maybe Starfleet has some exception to this, but Geordi's still a creeper for what he did.

We know holodecks aren't particularly new, but it's still likely that the all-immersive aspect and the "do anything" ability is less than 10 years old at that point, and possibly only exists on advanced exploratory ships with long-range missions. So holo-law might not have caught up to the situation at hand, just like all the issues with internet law today and any new world-changing technology.

And La Forge and Barclay are both commissioned officers and engineers with the ability and clearance to do things regular civilians cannot. Earthbound holodecks or purchased holosuites might be generally confined to using, say fifty million likenesses from model release forms, while the Ent-D (and other Galaxies?) have looser restrictions due to their intended mission status, which some people used to circumvent the computer and build unlicensed likenesses of crewmates or other real people.

The Doctor does a similar thing on Voyager, but as a hologram himself with access to the crew's detailed medical files, he may have been able to work through restrictions.

 

[The Wormhole]

Gotta be one of those things they retcon if the subject ever comes up again.

The subject has already come up multiple times in the franchise, and although there's personal distaste expressed over having holograms based on real people, there never appears to be official rules against it. When Quark created the holographic Kira for Jeffrey Combs and Kira and Odo learned of it, they didn't pursue an official reprimand, which you would think if it were a violation of a rule or law Odo would jump at the opportunity to nail Quark with it. When Barclay was exposed to be hanging out on the holodeck with recreations of the Voyager crew, his CO only punished him for unauthorized use of the holodeck, not creating holograms based on real people. Admiral Paris considered it disturbing that Barclay was hanging out with holographic versions of real people (his son among them) but didn't pursues any kind of official reprimand against him.

 

[Christopher]

We know holodecks aren't particularly new, but it's still likely that the all-immersive aspect and the "do anything" ability is less than 10 years old at that point, and possibly only exists on advanced exploratory ships with long-range missions. So holo-law might not have caught up to the situation at hand, just like all the issues with internet law today and any new world-changing technology.

I think it's the other way around. Janeway said that she played Flotter & Trevis holonovels as a kid, which clashes with Riker's amazement at the novelty of holodecks in "Farpoint." My personal retcon is that holosuites had existed for civilian use for decades, but it was only recently that the tech had been made compact/efficient enough, or starships luxurious enough, for Starfleet officers to have shipboard access to the same kind of recreational facilities that previously had only been found on planets or starbases.

And again, in "Hollow Pursuits" it was only said that there were no "regulations" against using holo-images of real people, so that refers to Starfleet rules, not civilian law. So the reason Starfleet regs wouldn't address the issue would presumably be because the tech hadn't been used on Starfleet ships long enough for it to become an issue. There might already have been civilian laws pertaining to it.

The problem with ST is that it's risky to make any assumptions about civilian life in the Federation because we've hardly ever seen it. What we know is mostly about Starfleet, which is its own separate world in many ways.

When Quark created the holographic Kira for Jeffrey Combs and Kira and Odo learned of it, they didn't pursue an official reprimand, which you would think if it were a violation of a rule or law Odo would jump at the opportunity to nail Quark with it.

Well, DS9 operated under Bajoran law, not Federation law. And Starfleet regs (even if any relevant ones had been developed in the intervening years) probably wouldn't apply to a civilian establishment like Quark's. So that example isn't really applicable, although your other examples are.

 

[Yistaan]

On a side note, we've gotten conflicting answers on whether holodecks help Vulcans get through Pon Farr without involving anyone else. The holodeck didn't work for Vorik, while it did work for Tuvok, both over the course of Voyager.

I'm surprised that Vulcans don't use holodecks or Orions more often. Before Enterprise, the latter seemingly involved slavery that Vulcans wouldn't want to be a part of, and so the idea of Spock or anyone dealing with Pon Farr by financially compensating an Orion was never addressed. But Enterprise changed all that by showing that many Orions were not actually slaves at all. The question is thus reopened on why Vulcans and Orions don't have some kind of arrangement instead of messing up peoples' lives with betrothals as kids, etc.

We've seen at least 3 examples in canon of Vulcans handling Pon Farr the "right" way ending disastrously--T'Pol and Koss, Spock and T'Pring, and Sarek and Sybok's mother. The aftereffects of these disasters are felt for years to come in Vulcans who have no choice but to suppress how they really feel.

I'm surprised there aren't a group of Vulcans who said "enough is enough" about dealing with Pon Farr the "proper" betrothal method, and instead used holograms, androids, or paid services with willing Orions. Messing up people for life just to deal with hormones is not logical.

We already have criminal Vulcan Logic Extremists after all, so peaceful Vulcans who want to handle Pon Farr without the betrothals and/or Plak Tow fights should definitely exist.

 

[Christopher]

On a side note, we've gotten conflicting answers on whether holodecks help Vulcans get through Pon Farr without involving anyone else. The holodeck didn't work for Vorik, while it did work for Tuvok, both over the course of Voyager.

Perhaps because Vorik's holosimulation was a random woman, while Tuvok's was his wife, so the latter had a deeper emotional impact.

I'm surprised that Vulcans don't use holodecks or Orions more often. Before Enterprise, the latter seemingly involved slavery that Vulcans wouldn't want to be a part of, and so the idea of Spock or anyone dealing with Pon Farr by financially compensating an Orion was never addressed. But Enterprise changed all that by showing that many Orions were not actually slaves at all. The question is thus reopened on why Vulcans and Orions don't have some kind of arrangement instead of messing up peoples' lives with betrothals as kids, etc.

Why Orions? They aren't the only sex workers in the known universe. Risa was known as far back as the ENT era, so surely that's a better choice. For that matter, there might well be Vulcan sex workers who provide their service to unbonded Vulcans in pon farr. It's only logical.

 

[Yistaan]

Perhaps because Vorik's holosimulation was a random woman, while Tuvok's was his wife, so the latter had a deeper emotional impact.




Why Orions? They aren't the only sex workers in the known universe. Risa was known as far back as the ENT era, so surely that's a better choice. For that matter, there might well be Vulcan sex workers who provide their service to unbonded Vulcans in pon farr. It's only logical.

I forgot about Risa. As far as Vulcan escorts, I suppose it's possible but I'm not sure if Vulcan government/society allows such services to exist. T'Pau seems to be a pretty ruthless advocate of the traditional ways, even willing to let a decorated Starfleet officer like Kirk get killed over it (it's never proven she knew about McCoy's last minute save ahead of time). It's clear the Federation lets her get away with far too much just because she's one of the founders of the Federation and hung out with President Jonathan Archer back in the day.

Actually what would have happened if Kirk had been killed? We know that Spock would have submitted himself for court martial, but would T'Pau get off scot free? I really hope not. Section 31 should send Mirror Georgiou to teach T'Pau a lesson.

 

[David cgc]

Actually what would have happened if Kirk had been killed? We know that Spock would have submitted himself for court martial, but would T'Pau get off scot free?

Probably. Look at all the times Worf killed someone under circumstances that were perfectly legal under Klingon law and all Picard or Sisko could do was yell at him and write him up for insubordination, at most.

Kirk agreed to take part in a Vulcan wedding, Kirk was warned that the proceedings would take place under Vulcan law, and he still agreed, even after Spock told him he was ignorant of critical information. Sure, no one told him flat out that the fight was to the death, but Spock begging T'Pau to forbid it should've suggested it was going to be more than a little friendly tussling like he assumed. Kirk would've been killed though his own negligence.