Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Christopher]

And that's just the way things are these days. It is, in fact, perfectly possible to be a huge fan of the movies, TV shows, games, etc. without ever engaging with the source material--which may or may not be very different from the media adaptations.

I don't think it's just "these days." I daresay that in the 1940s, more people knew Superman from the radio show, the Fleischer cartoons, and the daily newspaper strip than they did from the original comics. That's why the comics adopted so many things from those other sources (Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, kryptonite, and eventually Inspector Henderson from radio, the Daily Planet from the newspaper strip, Superman's power of flight from the cartoons and radio show). And the Adam West show made Batman a household name beyond what the comics had ever done.

 

[Yistaan]

Probably the most famous comic famed solely on its source material was Calvin and Hobbes, and I'm pretty sure that's famous only in America, not internationally like the X-Men or Batman are. And that's because Bill Watterson refused to do any licensing. And I'm not sure even in America any young people know who Calvin and Hobbes are anymore.

The comic book superhero is probably one of America's biggest contributions to popular culture. Sure other countries had their own comic book stories (Asterix from France, various martial arts comic books from Asia and manga from Japan), but the modern superhero as we know it comes straight from American comic books.

 

[marlboro]

Probably the most famous comic famed solely on its source material was Calvin and Hobbes, and I'm pretty sure that's famous only in America, not internationally like the X-Men or Batman are. And that's because Bill Watterson refused to do any licensing. And I'm not sure even in America any young people know who Calvin and Hobbes are anymore.

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I'm by no means an expert or even really a fan of comic strips, but I think that there have been several of them that have had more impact than C&H. Peanuts/Charlie Brown, Dick Tracy, Lil Abner, Garfield, Popeye etc.

The only comic strip I ever liked was The Far Side.

Another issue is that some of these comic books are just NOT kid-friendly.

Worse - they're boring. Maybe they've improved some in recent years, but several years ago I grabbed a few on a lark and I was amazed by how dull they were. I'm only talking about super hero comics here. I'm sure there are some good ones out there.

I can't imagine a 10 year old spending their allowance on comics, when video games are so much more fun. Heck, they're a lot cheaper, too. When I was paying $1.25 per comic in the 90s I had to pay 50 to 65 dollars for a new game. Comic prices have tripled while game prices have held steady or dropped.

 

[Yistaan]

I'm by no means an expert or even really a fan of comic strips, but I think that there have been several of them that have had more impact than C&H. Peanuts/Charlie Brown, Dick Tracy, Lil Abner, Garfield, Popeye etc.

I don't know about Lil Abner, but every other comic you mentioned ended up being outshone by its media adaptation (Charlie Brown Christmas, Dick Tracy cartoon/movie, Garfield and Popeye cartoons). The discussion here was about which comic was most known through its comic medium.

I can't imagine a 10 year old spending their allowance on comics, when video games are so much more fun. Heck, they're a lot cheaper, too. When I was paying $1.25 per comic in the 90s I had to pay 50 to 65 dollars for a new game. Comic prices have tripled while game prices have held steady or dropped.

Games take much longer to get a full story out of though. And they all require input from the player.

Sometimes someone just wants to relax and get a story in less than an hour, not have to go through a bunch of dialogue options, watch cutscenes you may not be able to skip, or have to look up guides on the internet to get past where you are stuck. Or keep reloading because you got a bad ending instead of the best or "canon" one.

And I say this as a big gamer myself who has played hundreds of games. Sometimes a comic book is best when you are tired after work.

 

[marlboro]

I completely misunderstood. My apologies.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know about Lil Abner, but every other comic you mentioned ended up being outshone by its media adaptation (Charlie Brown Christmas, Dick Tracy cartoon/movie, Garfield and Popeye cartoons). The discussion here was about which comic was most known through its comic medium.

There were a number of other-media adaptations of Li'l Abner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li'l_Abner#Li'l_Abner_in_other_media

They include a radio show, a short-lived theatrical cartoon series (cancelled after 5 installments due to Al Capp's disappointment with the product), a stage musical, and a couple of movies -- a 1940 film with Buster Keaton in a supporting role, and the more famous 1959 screen adaptation of the musical with Leslie Parrish (Carolyn Palamas) as Daisy Mae and Julie Newmar as Stupefyin' Jones. It even generated side-character spinoffs, like a Fearless Fosdick puppet show (based on the Dick Tracy parody comic strip that Abner enjoyed), a Hanna-Barbera cartoon about the Shmoo, and Lena the Hyena's cameo in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? There was never a TV series, but Al Capp himself was a prominent guest and host on various variety, talk, and game shows.

 

[Yistaan]

There were a number of other-media adaptations of Li'l Abner:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li'l_Abner#Li'l_Abner_in_other_media

They include a radio show, a short-lived theatrical cartoon series (cancelled after 5 installments due to Al Capp's disappointment with the product), a stage musical, and a couple of movies -- a 1940 film with Buster Keaton in a supporting role, and the more famous 1959 screen adaptation of the musical with Leslie Parrish (Carolyn Palamas) as Daisy Mae and Julie Newmar as Stupefyin' Jones. It even generated side-character spinoffs, like a Fearless Fosdick puppet show (based on the Dick Tracy parody comic strip that Abner enjoyed), a Hanna-Barbera cartoon about the Shmoo, and Lena the Hyena's cameo in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? There was never a TV series, but Al Capp himself was a prominent guest and host on various variety, talk, and game shows.

I never even heard of Lil Abner before today.

Media adaptations tend to soar because they just take the comic storylines and turn them into series/films. Basically piggy-backing off of the original work. As groundbreaking as Carl Barks' Uncle Scrooge comic books were, it's DuckTales most people think of first. When people think of Obelix, they think of Gerard Depardieu. Manga in Japan are turned into anime so fast many don't even realize there's a manga behind it.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdaptationDisplacement

 

[JoeZhang]

I don't think it's just "these days." I daresay that in the 1940s, more people knew Superman from the radio show, the Fleischer cartoons, and the daily newspaper strip than they did from the original comics. That's why the comics adopted so many things from those other sources (Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, kryptonite, and eventually Inspector Henderson from radio, the Daily Planet from the newspaper strip, Superman's power of flight from the cartoons and radio show). And the Adam West show made Batman a household name beyond what the comics had ever done.

A good example of this is when the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern came out and various people who grew up on the Justice League cartoon couldn't understand why the 'real' Green Lantern had been replaced by a white guy...

 

[Christopher]

I never even heard of Lil Abner before today.

It was huge back in its day. Although its humor built on Appalachian stereotypes has surely aged poorly.

As groundbreaking as Carl Barks' Uncle Scrooge comic books were, it's DuckTales most people think of first.

I don't think I was even more than passingly aware of Carl Barks when the original DuckTales came out. I probably read about him in Starlog at some point, but that was about it.

 

[marlboro]

It's impossible to see or hear the word DuckTales without mentally responding "woo hoo."

 

[Greg Cox]

I never even heard of Lil Abner before today.

It was a staple of newspaper comic pages for decades and I remember that the 1959 movie musical used to air pretty regularly on TV back in the day, to the extent that I can still hum some of the tunes, but, yes, it's no longer as ubiquitous as it once was. (Do people still talk of "Sadie Hawkin's Day" dances, where the girl asks the boy to dance? That came straight from the old Lil' Abner comics.)

Even the biggest pop-cultural sensations fade sometimes. I was at a Halloween parade a few years back where it was painfully obvious that the small children in the audience had no idea who the Flintstones were. And I was recently bemused to discover that the words "Peyton Place" meant to nothing to my (much) younger siblings, even though that title was once synonymous with sex and scandal behind white picket fences, thanks to the notorious bestselling novel which inspired the hit movie and TV series . . ....

Forty years from now, will young people ask "What's a 50 Shades of Grey"?

(And then there was "Forever Amber," which was the scandalous bestseller everyone was talking about back in the 1940s, now largely forgotten except by us bibliophiles.)

 

[Tuskin38]

Seems like Control, whatever it is, will be a plot mystery to be solved either during this season or the next (or even during the Section 31 show), and we'll be getting drips and drops of info on Control as the show proceeds.

Or Season 3 if they get one.

 

[Yistaan]

And I was recently bemused to discover that the words "Peyton Place" meant to nothing to my (much) younger siblings, even thought that title was once synonymous with sex and scandal behind white picket fences, thanks to the notorious novel which inspired the hit movie and TV series . . ....

At 35 years old, Peyton Place doesn't mean anything to me either.

But that's probably more me being me than a generational thing. Fifty Shades wouldn't mean anything to me either if it weren't for my younger brother discussing it.

Outside of work, I pretty much live in a clean bubble of playing computer games, reading comic books, or playing with my cat. And watching Star Trek.

Besides, the really good stuff lasts the test of time. Everyone still knows who Sherlock Holmes, Wonder Woman, and Batman are, after all.

 

[Greg Cox]

Besides, the really good stuff lasts the test of time. Everyone still knows who Sherlock Holmes, Wonder Woman, and Batman are, after all.

And Zorro is celebrating his 100th birthday this year . ...

 

[DrCorby]

Even the biggest pop-cultural sensations fade sometimes. I was at a Halloween parade a few years back where it was painfully obvious that the small children in the audience had no idea who the Flintstones were.

Wow. Though they were never favorites, the Flintstones have been fixtures in my pop culture landscape for all of my 50+ years. Major part of the Hanna-Barbera output.

And I was recently bemused to discover that the words "Peyton Place" meant to nothing to my (much) younger siblings, even thought that title was once synonymous with sex and scandal behind white picket fences, thanks to the notorious novel which inspired the hit movie and TV series . . ....

While I never saw the movie or TV series, I remember Peyton Place from the reference in the song, "Harper Valley PTA". Itself a probably-forgotten cultural relic.

Even Star Trek dealt with this a bit with Kirk and McCoy not recognizing Edith Keeler's reference to a "Clark Gable movie".

 

[Yistaan]

Even Star Trek dealt with this a bit with Kirk and McCoy not recognizing Edith Keeler's reference to a "Clark Gable movie".

Would Kirk and McCoy even be familiar with movies starring actual actors? I wouldn't be surprised if in their time directors and screenwriters just feed a screenplay into a holoprojector, set their own variables, and then a movie complete with holocharacters is generated. Which is then edited/altered to the director's liking before being released to the public.

Gee, since money isn't a thing anymore in Trek's future, maybe all the movies are just educational films and documentaries for people to better themselves... Or any entertainment are basically like videos uploaded to the internet now, where you don't get paid (and thus the films of the 23rd/24th century aren't much better than the free online videos of today).

 

[Greg Cox]

While I never saw the movie or TV series, I remember Peyton Place from the reference in the song, "Harper Valley PTA". Itself a probably-forgotten cultural relic.

To be honest, I never read the book or saw the movie or TV series either. It was just one of those pop-cultural things you picked up by osmosis. Which is why I was surprised that my siblings had never heard of it. It wasn't just that it was before their time or not their thing; the words "Peyton Place" rang no bells.

And, yes, "Lil' Abner" was one of the most popular comic strips in America, but I'm not too surprised that younger folks have never heard of it.

 

[marlboro]

I'm 37, but when I was young I made it a point to learn about things from my parent's and grandparent's eras. I always felt dumb when older people would discuss pop culture and history that I wasn't familiar with. Two benefits: 1) I could have a decent conversation with people of all ages and 2) I learned about a lot of cool music, movies, and recent history.


Unfortunately, I haven't made the same effort to keep in touch with what's going on today. I don't think I'm missing much, but I don't like the fact that it's almost impossible to make a joke with a young person because we don't share the same cultural references.

 

[Christopher]

Would Kirk and McCoy even be familiar with movies starring actual actors? I wouldn't be surprised if in their time directors and screenwriters just feed a screenplay into a holoprojector, set their own variables, and then a movie complete with holocharacters is generated. Which is then edited/altered to the director's liking before being released to the public.

That would never work, not to a degree that audiences would find satisfying. It takes human talent to create an effective performance. Even the most advanced "computer animation" is animated by humans using computers as their medium. And of course voice work is always done by real actors. Only the most arrogant director would think they were sufficiently skilled in every aspect of filmmaking that they could do it all themselves without collaborating with experts specializing in all the different aspects of film production. Of course, there are directors that arrogant, but their output without collaborators probably wouldn't be very good (as seen by comparing the Star Wars prequels, where George Lucas assumed he could write and direct them nearly all by himself, with the original trilogy, where he had the better sense to trust his collaborators more than his ego).

And after all, the Federation is a society where people don't have to work for basic subsistence and are free to work in pursuit of their dreams and fulfill their best potentials, right? Surely that includes people like actors, set designers, composers, etc. -- people who would want to do that work because they loved it. The talent would be there to draw on, so why not draw on it?

I mean, you might as well say that they could do all space exploration with robot probes. It'd certainly be safer. And yes, they could do that, but they don't, because letting computers do all their living for them is not how Federation citizens roll.

Unfortunately, I haven't made the same effort to keep in touch with what's going on today. I don't think I'm missing much, but I don't like the fact that it's almost impossible to make a joke with a young person because we don't share the same cultural references.

I'm often tempted to have a character in one of my books or stories make a pop-culture reference, only to realize it's unlikely that a character from that far in the future would be familiar with the thing I want to reference, so I have to leave it out.

 

[Greg Cox]

I make a point of subscribing to Entertainment Weekly just so my pop-cultural references don't get too out of date, although what I don't know about modern games, manga, anime, and pop music would fill volumes.

True story: Years ago I was at a publishing sales conference when a venerable editor, with a long and distinguished career, stated that a new thriller novel would "make a great Steve McQueen movie!"

This was in 1995.

I vowed then and there that I would never let myself get that out of touch with contemporary pop culture!