Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[marlboro]

It's amazing to think just how few comics are sold these days when there has been a 20 year deluge of billion dollar blockbuster movies based on them.

Imagine what will happen when Hollywood finally moves on.

 

[Yistaan]

It's amazing to think just how few comics are sold these days when there has been a 20 year deluge of billion dollar blockbuster movies based on them.

Imagine what will happen when Hollywood finally moves on.

Do we know for sure there are few comic book sales? https://www.comicsbeat.com/comparing-comixology-sales-ranks-with-print-sales-a-tangled-web-emerges/

The first line of the article outright says: The exact sales of digital comics are somewhat shrouded in mystery.

 

[Christopher]

It's amazing to think just how few comics are sold these days when there has been a 20 year deluge of billion dollar blockbuster movies based on them.

Most people who go to see movies probably have little interest in reading the things they're based on. If even a tiny percentage of them do, that's still a big boost in sales of the book or comic, but it'll never be a huge segment of the movie audience.

 

[marlboro]

Do we know for sure there are few comic book sales? https://www.comicsbeat.com/comparing-comixology-sales-ranks-with-print-sales-a-tangled-web-emerges/

The first line of the article outright says: The exact sales of digital comics are somewhat shrouded in mystery.

I'm not sure how to read those numbers. Are those online sales only? Surely they are. If not, then sales are even worse than I thought.

Most people who go to see movies probably have little interest in reading the things they're based on. If even a tiny percentage of them do, that's still a big boost in sales of the book or comic, but it'll never be a huge segment of the movie audience.

Very true. But that is a hell of a lot of free publicity. And I think the movies have removed a lot of the stigma of being a comic book fan.



Anybody know what the cancellation point for comics is these days? When I read comics as a kid in the mid 90s I think the top sellers were usually around 180k per month with a cancellation point under 20k. I think. My memory sucks.

Anyway you look at it it's been a long, steady decline from the 1940s to today.

 

[Tuskin38]

My personal headcanon has always gone games first, then comic books, then whatever novels can fit. Games take very high precedence in my headcanon due to the work of Trek actors (Shatner, Plummer, Warner, the entire TOS and TNG casts in 25th Anniversary/Judgment Rites/Final Unity etc.)

One thing that ticked me off about the Romulan War books was that the Star Trek Legacy game very clearly stated Mayweather was about the Enterprise NX-01 during the Romulan War (a date was given in the game as well), yet the novels made it clear Mayweather wasn't aboard at that time due to some fight he had with Archer. And as soon as I read that, I was like--ok, these novels aren't canon to me anymore , I feel the game actually voiced by Scott Bakula has precedence...

Chang and Gorkon's history from the Klingon Academy game automatically takes precedence for me over whatever happened to them in the novels.

I just treat each medium as its own separate continuity.

 

[Christopher]

I just choose works individually -- if I think a book or comic is compatible with the screen continuity and with the other tie-ins I accept, then I count it. It's not about medium, it's about specific case-by-case content.

 

[Leto_II]

I just choose works individually -- if I think a book or comic is compatible with the screen continuity and with the other tie-ins I accept, then I count it. It's not about medium, it's about specific case-by-case content.

This is my philosophy too.

 

[JD]

My personal headcanon has always gone games first, then comic books, then whatever novels can fit. Games take very high precedence in my headcanon due to the work of Trek actors (Shatner, Plummer, Warner, the entire TOS and TNG casts in 25th Anniversary/Judgment Rites/Final Unity etc.)

One thing that ticked me off about the Romulan War books was that the Star Trek Legacy game very clearly stated Mayweather was about the Enterprise NX-01 during the Romulan War (a date was given in the game as well), yet the novels made it clear Mayweather wasn't aboard at that time due to some fight he had with Archer. And as soon as I read that, I was like--ok, these novels aren't canon to me anymore , I feel the game actually voiced by Scott Bakula has precedence...

Chang and Gorkon's history from the Klingon Academy game automatically takes precedence for me over whatever happened to them in the novels.

I just choose works individually -- if I think a book or comic is compatible with the screen continuity and with the other tie-ins I accept, then I count it. It's not about medium, it's about specific case-by-case content.

Same here.
For me it's obviously TV and movies first, and then anything after that that contradicts each other, I just go with whatever I like more. Even if they aren't able to be reconciled, I still am able to enjoy two different sources that contradict each other, for instance I enjoy Elite Force 2, the novelverse, and the Hive comic. If you try really hard you might get EF2 and the Novelverse to fit together, but Hive won't.

 

[Greg Cox]

My personal headcanon has always gone games first, then comic books, then whatever novels can fit. Games take very high precedence in my headcanon due to the work of Trek actors (Shatner, Plummer, Warner, the entire TOS and TNG casts in 25th Anniversary/Judgment Rites/Final Unity etc.).

Interesting. I wonder if this is a generational thing. I confess I know next to nothing about computer games, Star Trek related or otherwise, but have been reading books and comics since I was a kid. (My idea of a demanding video game is Solitaire or Hearts.) I'm vaguely aware that STAR TREK games exist, but that's about it . . ..

EDIT: Come to think of it, I edited some MORTAL KOMBAT books back in the day, but those were based on the movies, not the original game, which I've never played.

 

[DrCorby]

My personal headcanon has always gone games first, then comic books, then whatever novels can fit. Games take very high precedence in my headcanon due to the work of Trek actors (Shatner, Plummer, Warner, the entire TOS and TNG casts in 25th Anniversary/Judgment Rites/Final Unity etc.)

Interesting. I wonder if this is a generational thing. I confess I know next to nothing about computer games, Star Trek related or otherwise, but have been reading books and comics since I was a kid. (My idea of a demanding video game is Solitaire or Hearts.) I'm vaguely aware that STAR TREK games exist, but that's about it . . ..

I think Greg and I are of similar ages, but I have played a few Star Trek video games. And my preferences are pretty much the opposite of Yistaan's. Books can tell longer, more in-depth stories that I find much more engaging. Comics can be fun, but can sometimes feel rushed and disposable. Games can be fun, but they're such a different medium from TV/film, and the storytelling is often given a back seat to the gameplay and mechanics, that (at least for the ones I've played) I usually can't seriously entertain slotting them into continuity.

Just because a Star Trek cast member or guest star participates in a project (novel, comic, game, audio play, or whatever) doesn't automatically increase the project's credibility for me. While they are actors whose acting work I enjoy on screen, that does not necessarily mean they are also good novel/comic book writers. A few are; some definitely are not. And recording dialogue for games is generally just a paying gig for the actors. Almost never do they have any say over the story in a game; that's the job of the game developers. A lot of SNL Star Trek skits have ST alumni; they can be fun (and funny), but I hardly think that makes them canon.

So basically, for me, it comes down to whether I enjoy a particular work, regardless of the medium, and regardless of who worked on it. Certainly, there are authors and artists whose work I tend to prefer over others, based on what I've previously read/seen. I liked the "Spock vs Q" audio plays. I doubt whether they fit well into "canon", but they were fun. The audio drama based on the "Borg" computer game was enjoyable; it plausibly could fit. But I stopped reading the Shatnerverse and New Frontier novels because I didn't enjoy them; canonicity is irrelevant in those cases.

TL;DR - My logic is uncertain where canon is concerned. I like what I like on a case-by-case basis. I squint to include it all under the same umbrella sometimes...

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I definitely played the SNES and Gameboy TNG games as a kid.

 

[Yistaan]

I think Greg and I are of similar ages, but I have played a few Star Trek video games. And my preferences are pretty much the opposite of Yistaan's. Books can tell longer, more in-depth stories that I find much more engaging. Comics can be fun, but can sometimes feel rushed and disposable. Games can be fun, but they're such a different medium from TV/film, and the storytelling is often given a back seat to the gameplay and mechanics, that (at least for the ones I've played) I usually can't seriously entertain slotting them into continuity.

Just because a Star Trek cast member or guest star participates in a project (novel, comic, game, audio play, or whatever) doesn't automatically increase the project's credibility for me. While they are actors whose acting work I enjoy on screen, that does not necessarily mean they are also good novel/comic book writers. A few are; some definitely are not. And recording dialogue for games is generally just a paying gig for the actors. Almost never do they have any say over the story in a game; that's the job of the game developers. A lot of SNL Star Trek skits have ST alumni; they can be fun (and funny), but I hardly think that makes them canon.

So basically, for me, it comes down to whether I enjoy a particular work, regardless of the medium, and regardless of who worked on it. Certainly, there are authors and artists whose work I tend to prefer over others, based on what I've previously read/seen. I liked the "Spock vs Q" audio plays. I doubt whether they fit well into "canon", but they were fun. The audio drama based on the "Borg" computer game was enjoyable; it plausibly could fit. But I stopped reading the Shatnerverse and New Frontier novels because I didn't enjoy them; canonicity is irrelevant in those cases.

TL;DR - My logic is uncertain where canon is concerned. I like what I like on a case-by-case basis. I squint to include it all under the same umbrella sometimes...

The Klingon Academy game in particular got down to the letter just who Chang and Gorkon were, and how such differing characters ended up in the situations they did as of Star Trek 6. And it explains how Chang got the eyepatch.

And who doesn't love Christopher Plummer and David Warner? They reprise their roles in the game.

Wikiquote has some of the game's best lines on its page: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Klingon_Academy

Playing Star Trek 25th Anniversary, Judgment Rites, and Star Trek TNG: A Final Unity are like getting new Trek episodes (and you can play on easy to avoid all the combat). The first 2 are easily purchased on Steam and thus easily playable on modern systems, but the latter (Final Unity) doesn't have a digital release and you will probably need Amazon/Ebay (as well as tech knowhow to run it).

Interesting. I wonder if this is a generational thing. I confess I know next to nothing about computer games, Star Trek related or otherwise, but have been reading books and comics since I was a kid. (My idea of a demanding video game is Solitaire or Hearts.) I'm vaguely aware that STAR TREK games exist, but that's about it . . ..

EDIT: Come to think of it, I edited some MORTAL KOMBAT books back in the day, but those were based on the movies, not the original game, which I've never played.

It's free, so join us on Star Trek Online! Resistance is futile, hehe.

Also, I don't think it's a generational thing as the late great writer Terry Pratchett (born 1948) was a big gamer: https://www.pcgamesn.com/terry-pratchett-oblivion-mods . Still can't believe he's gone...

 

[Greg Cox]

Also, I don't think it's a generational thing as the late great writer Terry Pratchett (born 1948) was a big gamer: https://www.pcgamesn.com/terry-pratchett-oblivion-mods . Still can't believe he's gone...

One of the easiest jobs I ever had was moderating a panel on British vs. American humor with Terry Pratchett and Esther Friesner. I basically made some introductions, threw out a few questions, and let Terry and Esther go to town. A fun panel, as I recall.

 

[DrCorby]

Playing Star Trek 25th Anniversary, Judgment Rites, and Star Trek TNG: A Final Unity are like getting new Trek episodes (and you can play on easy to avoid all the combat). The first 2 are easily purchased on Steam and thus easily playable on modern systems, but the latter (Final Unity) doesn't have a digital release and you will probably need Amazon/Ebay (as well as tech knowhow to run it).

I picked up 25th Anniversary & Judgement Rites a while back on Steam when they were on sale. I'll need to carve out some time to play them.

 

[JD]

I think Greg and I are of similar ages, but I have played a few Star Trek video games. And my preferences are pretty much the opposite of Yistaan's. Books can tell longer, more in-depth stories that I find much more engaging. Comics can be fun, but can sometimes feel rushed and disposable. Games can be fun, but they're such a different medium from TV/film, and the storytelling is often given a back seat to the gameplay and mechanics, that (at least for the ones I've played) I usually can't seriously entertain slotting them into continuity.

Just because a Star Trek cast member or guest star participates in a project (novel, comic, game, audio play, or whatever) doesn't automatically increase the project's credibility for me. While they are actors whose acting work I enjoy on screen, that does not necessarily mean they are also good novel/comic book writers. A few are; some definitely are not. And recording dialogue for games is generally just a paying gig for the actors. Almost never do they have any say over the story in a game; that's the job of the game developers. A lot of SNL Star Trek skits have ST alumni; they can be fun (and funny), but I hardly think that makes them canon.

So basically, for me, it comes down to whether I enjoy a particular work, regardless of the medium, and regardless of who worked on it. Certainly, there are authors and artists whose work I tend to prefer over others, based on what I've previously read/seen. I liked the "Spock vs Q" audio plays. I doubt whether they fit well into "canon", but they were fun. The audio drama based on the "Borg" computer game was enjoyable; it plausibly could fit. But I stopped reading the Shatnerverse and New Frontier novels because I didn't enjoy them; canonicity is irrelevant in those cases.

TL;DR - My logic is uncertain where canon is concerned. I like what I like on a case-by-case basis. I squint to include it all under the same umbrella sometimes...

When it comes to who from the shows in involved, I would put things that come from people who wrote for the shows above things involving the actors. The actors just performed the stuff, but the writers are the ones who actually came up with it all.
I was surprised a while back when I realized just how many of the novelists were involved in the shows.

 

[DWMarch]

Tyler actually defined what Control is in tonight's episode. He said it models Section 31's threat assessments. So while it might not be a direct reference to Control the novel, it doesn't contradict it either.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Seems like Control, whatever it is, will be a plot mystery to be solved either during this season or the next (or even during the Section 31 show), and we'll be getting drips and drops of info on Control as the show proceeds.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ And if it turns out any different from the novel, we get to claim that it was the "real" Control leading people down a false trail.

 

[Greg Cox]

Most people who go to see movies probably have little interest in reading the things they're based on. If even a tiny percentage of them do, that's still a big boost in sales of the book or comic, but it'll never be a huge segment of the movie audience.

Years ago, Peter David reported meeting a kid who was a huge SPIDER-MAN fan--but who had never actually read a comic book. He knew Spidey from the movies, the cartoons, the games, the toys, etc.

And that's just the way things are these days. It is, in fact, perfectly possible to be a huge fan of the movies, TV shows, games, etc. without ever engaging with the source material--which may or may not be very different from the media adaptations.

And, yes, it's perhaps worth noting that the actual comics are not always readily accessible to the casual reader or to folks who first encountered the media version. I remember when the first X-MEN movie came out in 2000, the actual X-Men comics were in the middle of some byzantine multi-part crossover saga that would have been utter incomprehensible to any moviegoer who picked up an issue because they really liked Hugh Jackman and Anna Paquin's versions of the characters . .....

Similarly, anybody who picks up a SUPERGIRL comic today is likely to wonder why where her sister Alex is, why Kara isn't working for Catco, why she's not in love with Mon-El, etc.

 

[Yistaan]

Years ago, Peter David reported meeting a kid who was a huge SPIDER-MAN fan--but who had never actually read a comic book. He knew Spidey from the movies, the cartoons, the games, the toys, etc.

And that's just the way things are these days. It is, in fact, perfectly possible to be a huge fan of the movies, TV shows, games, etc. without ever engaging with the source material--which may or may not be very different from the media adaptations.

And, yes, it's perhaps worth noting that the actual comics are not always readily accessible to the casual reader or to folks who first encountered the media version. I remember when the first X-MEN movie came out in 2000, the actual X-Men comics were in the middle of some byzantine multi-part crossover saga that would have been utter incomprehensible to any moviegoer who picked up an issue because they really liked Hugh Jackman and Anna Paquin's versions of the characters . .....

Similarly, anybody who picks up a SUPERGIRL comic today is likely to wonder why where her sister Alex is, why Kara isn't working for Catco, why she's not in love with Mon-El, etc.

Another issue is that some of these comic books are just NOT kid-friendly. A few years ago I was going through the kids' section of the library and saw Grant Morrison's Batman: Arkham Asylum in there. This comic book goes into graphic detail about murders and attacks on women. At the time, I was thinking like "Do the librarians know this comic book is REALLY not for kids?". They probably put it there because they saw Batman on the cover.

I'm more of an X-Men/Marvel person than DC anyway. While Marvel has their violent comic books too, like Punisher Max, those tend to be sidelined away from the mainstream storylines--you don't really need to read them to know what's going on in the wider Marvel world. Meanwhile, DC has stories like 'The Killing Joke' as key to their Batman mythos, and the massive DC crossover Identity Crisis 15 years ago literally revolved around Dr. Light's attack on Sue Dibny, which was VERY MUCH not safe for kids.

I picked up 25th Anniversary & Judgement Rites a while back on Steam when they were on sale. I'll need to carve out some time to play them.

Another big recommendation I have to make is Starfleet Academy, also available on Steam. That, along with 25th Anniversary, Judgment Rites, and A Final Unity, is one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. There's just nowhere else you can experience the Kobayashi Maru yourself. You can even cheat in several ways, go through it straight and don't win, or even cheat in the exact same way Chris Pine Kirk does (and this game came out 12 years before the 2009 film).

Your character also gets to talk to Captain Kirk about his cheating (your character stumbles on the old code that Kirk used to hack the simulation).

Also, it provides a lot more depth into Kirk's character. It takes place before Star Trek 6, yet he puts down a coup aimed at taking a hardline against Klingons. Underneath his professional demeanor you know Kirk still hates the Klingons for what they did to David, but you see him in a professional setting in the game and he acts like a Starfleet officer would.