• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

So...just picked up Discovery: Succession #2 today, and some very interesting continuity notes to be found within it (spoilerized):

  • The issue's first flashback is set in 2247, which is approximately when the short story "Ill Winds" (from Mirror Universe: Shards and Shadows) is set (although a firm date is never actually given in that story, apart from a window of "[after] 2245" and "[before] 2251"), but having just re-read "Winds," there is only one quick mention of Empress Sato II (Mirror April mentions that the captain of the I.S.S. Indomitable served "years earlier" in Sato II's personal security detail), but absolutely nothing about Sato being the current Terran Empress in the timeframe of the story itself. Needless to say, this fits exquisitely well with what David Mack and other writers (Dayton and Kevin, in this case) established in the Litverse.
  • And the next story in the Mirror Litverse (Margaret Wander Bonanno's "The Greater Good") doesn't even mention the Empress at all, meaning that Georgiou could have temporarily overthrown Sato II at some point between 2247 and 2254 (when the Pike-era sections of "The Greater Good" take place).
  • Mirror Admiral Cornwell pulls up a display depicting what's clearly a Constellation-class vessel (i.e., like the Stargazer) during a presentation to Emperor Alexander, but the earliest known example of this class being in service in the Prime Universe is around 2275 or thereabouts (in Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels).
  • ...And then, on the very last page, we see the front portion of the saucer section of the I.S.S. Constellation (NCC-1017), although the rest of the ship is not visible. It's not clear whether or not this is supposed to be the same ship Mirror Cornwell showed on her display earlier in the issue, or the Prime Universe's own Mirror Constitution-class counterpart. If it is, though...hunh. So maybe what's known as the "Constellation-class" in the Prime Universe goes by a completely different designation in the Mirror Universe? And the Mirror April's flagship in "Ill Winds" is the I.S.S. Constellation, so...guess we'll see.
On the whole, this issue seems to present very few, if any, actual hard conflicts with the literary Mirror Universe stories, with the only real potential peculiarity being the last item mentioned on the list.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much all agreed, but wouldn't the flashback be in 2247, since it was ten years before the present, which was after the MU arc in 2257?
 
Woops...yup, you're right; forgot that the Discovery had that nine-month timejump, into 2257, and that's now the "present day" (second-to-last day of school before summer break starts, and my brain is totally fried). Post has been edited accordingly.
 
Last edited:
Leto_II said:
Mirror Admiral Cornwell pulls up a display depicting what's clearly a Constellation-class vessel (i.e., like the Stargazer) during a presentation to Emperor Alexander, but the earliest known example of this class being in service in the Prime Universe is around 2275 or thereabouts (in Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels).
Click to expand...

Wha? While a ship called the Constellation appears in My Enemy, My Ally, it's explicitly stated to be of the same class as the Enterprise, i.e. a Constitution-class ship (just like its predecessor from "The Doomsday Machine"). Obviously a book published in 1984 could not reference a ship class introduced in 1987.
 
Christopher said:
Wha? While a ship called the Constellation appears in My Enemy, My Ally, it's explicitly stated to be of the same class as the Enterprise, i.e. a Constitution-class ship (just like its predecessor from "The Doomsday Machine"). Obviously a book published in 1984 could not reference a ship class introduced in 1987.
Click to expand...
The Constellation class appears in Rihannsu: Honor Blade. Obviously.
 
Stevil2001 said:
The Constellation class appears in Rihannsu: Honor Blade. Obviously.
Click to expand...
Yeah, having recently re-read those books, what Duane mentions about the "new" Constellation class stuck out in my mind today when I was reading Succession #2:
Sempach was one of a newer, experimental class of cruisers, the Constellation class, named in memory of Matt Decker's old ship that had been lost against the planet killer in the L-374 system not so very long ago. The class-name ship and Sempach had been the first out of the shipyards, with Speedwell close behind, and all of them were busy perfoming their basic function -- trying out a new four-nacelle design that was supposed to provide starships with a more streamlined and reliable warp field, capable of higher speeds. (Honor Blade, Chapter 6)
Click to expand...
 
King Daniel Beyond said:
The makeup designers are talking about wanting to unmask the Breen in DSC: S2. Let's all start imagining the catastrophic damage to Typhon Pact-era novelverse if all the Breen multispecies stuff were rendered invalid...
Click to expand...

But if the Breen are multispecies, then whatever they reveal under the masks could just be interpreted as another one of those species.

Reconciling older books with new canon is never going to be perfect, but we've done it before. Remember that The Sundered described the Tholians as having a scorpionlike shape. Post-"In a Mirror, Darkly," the novels just changed the description of the Tholians to fit new screen canon but kept everything else from The Sundered intact. See also the novels' portrayal of the Andorian homeworld. Tweaking a few details does not equal "catastrophic damage."
 
Leto_II said:
And then, on the very last page, we see the front portion of the saucer section of the I.S.S. Constellation (NCC-1017), although the rest of the ship is not visible. It's not clear whether or not this is supposed to be the same ship Mirror Cornwell showed on her display earlier in the issue, or the Prime Universe's own Mirror Constitution-class counterpart. If it is, though...hunh. So maybe what's known as the "Constellation-class" in the Prime Universe goes by a completely different designation in the Mirror Universe? And the Mirror April's flagship in "Ill Winds" is the I.S.S. Constellation, so...guess we'll see.
Click to expand...
FWIW, the regular universe Constellation - the one of the Constitution class - is also NCC-1017. The class ship USS Constellation, OTOH, was NCC-1974. I don't see why this would be any different in the MU.
 
Christopher said:
But if the Breen are multispecies, then whatever they reveal under the masks could just be interpreted as another one of those species.

Reconciling older books with new canon is never going to be perfect, but we've done it before. Remember that The Sundered described the Tholians as having a scorpionlike shape. Post-"In a Mirror, Darkly," the novels just changed the description of the Tholians to fit new screen canon but kept everything else from The Sundered intact. See also the novels' portrayal of the Andorian homeworld. Tweaking a few details does not equal "catastrophic damage."
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's true. Though the Typhon Pact novels gave a pretty good backstory to the Breen and a canon episode could still do a lot of damage. If all they do is unmask the Breen, then yes the damage is minimal, or maybe nonexistent because they could just be added to the species make-up (in a way, David Mack's novel--which I believe was the first to give a really exhaustive description of what the Breen really are, opened that up so that they could show any type of Breen and still not overwrite the Breen in the novelverse--and since the depicted a number of different Breen species is currently 7--yeah I had to look that up--it's possible they might depict one at least somewhat consistent with one already described even by accident).

But the damage can come in the make-up of the Breen's political system and culture as presented in the various novels. I'm not sure how detailed they plan on depicting the Breen (if at all).

However, it's possible the showrunners are familiar with the novels that depict the Breen in detail. Perhaps Kirsten Beyer being on the team can help in that regard as well, and it seems the Discovery team is trying to keep at least their stories all consistent with the Discovery novels and comics. With that in mind it's possible they will decide to keep any depiction of the Breen on Discovery consistent with how they've been presented in the novels. Or at the very least maybe they'll keep it vague enough that it doesn't outright contradict the novels.
 
I mean, that’s been one of the advantages of tapping someone who writes the novels for the show’s staff. Sure, they’re gonna put Discovery’s story needs first, but by having someone who is familiar with the novels (and is good friends with several other authors), there’s also the ability to reference or at least avoid stepping on the toes of the novels.

And, as for any differences in culture or politics utilized by these races... I mean, there’s a century plus between Discovery and the 24th century novels’ present. We saw the cultural shift in Klingons and Romulans between TOS and TNG. Most of these things can be reconciled if the need arises. Some things aren’t likely to even need to be reconciled - individuals vary, politics change, society shifts... There’s really no need to panic, especially when all that’s confirmed right now is talking taking place.
 
Damian said:
Yeah, that's true. Though the Typhon Pact novels gave a pretty good backstory to the Breen and a canon episode could still do a lot of damage.
Click to expand...

We Trek novelists have lots and lots of experience at fixing plot holes. All it takes is imagination.

After all, the Breen hide their true nature from outsiders. What they tell others -- maybe even parts of what they tell themselves about their history -- may be more legend than fact. So different portrayals can be reconciled by establishing that one or the other is not entirely true.


But the damage can come in the make-up of the Breen's political system and culture as presented in the various novels. I'm not sure how detailed they plan on depicting the Breen (if at all).
Click to expand...

As DGCat says, it's quite easy to explain the Breen political system in the 2250s being different from the Breen political system in the 2380s. It would be unrealistic to expect it not to be different.
 
Christopher said:
We Trek novelists have lots and lots of experience at fixing plot holes. All it takes is imagination.

After all, the Breen hide their true nature from outsiders. What they tell others -- maybe even parts of what they tell themselves about their history -- may be more legend than fact. So different portrayals can be reconciled by establishing that one or the other is not entirely true.




As DGCat says, it's quite easy to explain the Breen political system in the 2250s being different from the Breen political system in the 2380s. It would be unrealistic to expect it not to be different.
Click to expand...

All true. And I'm sure any of you guys can fix any inconsistencies that arise if they are portrayed differently in Discovery. I've certainly seen it done plenty of times.

I was just trying to envision a potential worse case scenario, that they portray them in such a way that is so inconsistent with their novel portrayal that it's almost impossible to reconcile in any meaningful way.

However, at this point we don't even know if they will indeed 'unmask' the Breen at all. And having a novel writer on staff at least in some capacity may help minimize any potential 'damage.' I honestly don't know how much influence Beyer has with the on air staff and the scope of her role beyond overseeing the novel aspect of Discovery. But it can't hurt.
 
Christopher said:
But if the Breen are multispecies, then whatever they reveal under the masks could just be interpreted as another one of those species.
Click to expand...
Nah, that's too easy. What if they visit the Breen homeworld and depict only one race of Breen, with throwaway lines invalidating any hope of compatibility with the novelverse? Something leaving the Typhon Pact-era Breen novels in Starfleet: Year One territory.
Reconciling older books with new canon is never going to be perfect, but we've done it before. Remember that The Sundered described the Tholians as having a scorpionlike shape. Post-"In a Mirror, Darkly," the novels just changed the description of the Tholians to fit new screen canon but kept everything else from The Sundered intact. See also the novels' portrayal of the Andorian homeworld. Tweaking a few details does not equal "catastrophic damage."
Click to expand...
One wonders at what point these little and not-so-little changes add up to a point where the prime novelverse becomes unrecognizable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top