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Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

Some fans, perhaps. But fans were no more a monolithic bloc in 1979 than they are in 2019.

That's basically my point. There have been fans who screamed bloody murder about the changes in every new incarnation of Trek, but most of fandom didn't share their objections, and so changes or decisions that some fans found unacceptable ended up being accepted in the long run. The same cycle repeats every single time a new incarnation comes along, and the same old protests are raised as if nothing like them has ever happened before.
 
There have been fans who screamed bloody murder about the changes in every new incarnation of Trek

Fans screamed bloody murder about the new Enterprise? Could you document that, because, frankly, that wasn’t my experience with any of the Trek fans I knew at the time or after.
 
Fans screamed bloody murder about the new Enterprise? Could you document that, because, frankly, that wasn’t my experience with any of the Trek fans I knew at the time or after.

Again: My entire point is that this is the reaction of a minority of fans, not most or all of them, so it would be statistically unlikely that any single individual fan would have direct personal experience of it in a single narrow case. And these days, with the Internet to amplify any fringe idea, those minority objections are much louder and more audible. Back in those days, you had to look in the right places, like the letter columns of magazines like Starlog. Somewhere on this BBS a few years ago, someone posted a scan of a Starlog letter by someone insisting that it was impossible for ST:TMP and TWOK to be in the same reality as TOS because all the designs were so completely different. There are always some people who can't accept a change, even if most fans are fine with it.
 
The explanation that it was a "refit" was a bit of a stretch, unless you assume "refit" means "Stripped down to the girders, then given an extensively redesigned spaceframe before being completely reskinned."

I do remember reading somewhere, maybe the novelization, that the ship was stripped down to the skeletal frame and computer core, and rebuilt from there up. So Decker's line that it was an almost completely new Enterprise was literally true.

Somewhere on this BBS a few years ago, someone posted a scan of a Starlog letter by someone insisting that it was impossible for ST:TMP and TWOK to be in the same reality as TOS because all the designs were so completely different. There are always some people who can't accept a change, even if most fans are fine with it.

That's interesting, and not really surprising as I've read comments from people here and back when I used to frequent trekmovie.com. One thing I've learned about Trekkies is we have our own IDIC. We Trekkies rarely agree on anything, except that we love Star Trek (or at least some form of Star Trek).

It's interesting for me as well because I come from the other direction. My first exposure to Star Trek was the movies. TSFS then TWOK. Then I became a Trekkie after seeing TMP (yeah, I sort of watched them to start in reverse order--but after watching TMP I went back and watched TWOK and TSFS in proper order ;) ). In a way it made it easier to accept some changes. Now it helped that TMP offered some in-universe explanations for it's changes. They didn't just say 'let's pretend this is how the Enterprise always looked'. They acknowledged the change there. But since that was the first thing I saw, and I knew from TMP it was different when I went back to watch the TV series it wasn't an issue for me.

I went to see TMP in the theater this evening in fact (I was thrilled--TMP is the only Trek film I never saw in the theater and being my favorite Star Trek film I was glad to finally see it in all its theatrical glory) and during the pre-show interviews one of the associate producers said he believed TMP was the first movie to follow a TV series and be a sequel to that series with the same actors, characters and all. Nowadays I guess that's not such a big deal. But it's pretty cool to think Star Trek started as a TV series, continued as a movie series, then continued later as further TV series, movies based on one of the spin-offs, more TV series and movies and series again, and they all belong to the same basic universe (even the Kelvin verse movies--which are still tied to the original). So many franchises have reboots that basically ignore previous iterations. All of Star Trek is still tied, not just in name but even in story continuity, to those 3 seasons of the original series (and too each other even--Discovery acknowledges Enterprise for instance). That's pretty amazing if you think about it. How many franchises can say that--that they are still tied in-continuity--to what started it all.
 
It was addressed over 25 years later. Fandom got by just fine for a quarter-century without needing a canon explanation for a makeup change.

As I like to joke: Want an "explanation" for the latest Klingon makeover? Just be patient. Maybe you'll get one in 2043. :)

Until then, just chill out and don't worry about it, like we did back in '79.
 
one of the associate producers said he believed TMP was the first movie to follow a TV series and be a sequel to that series with the same actors, characters and all.

I think The Man Called Flintstone beat it to the punch. And there were various movies that came out during the runs of their respective series and used the same cast, like Batman (1966), Munster Go Home, and the two McHale's Navy films.
 
I think The Man Called Flintstone beat it to the punch. And there were various movies that came out during the runs of their respective series and used the same cast, like Batman (1966), Munster Go Home, and the two McHale's Navy films.

Hmm, I guess he was mistaken then.

Still, Star Trek has to be one of the only franchises, or very few at least, that has as many shows and movies as it does that are all tied together within the continuity. Even the reboot movies are not full reboots.
 
Still, Star Trek has to be one of the only franchises, or very few at least, that has as many shows and movies as it does that are all tied together within the continuity.

Well, Star Wars comes close now, with three canonical animated series and an upcoming live-action TV series along with the movies. Though it's unlikely to catch up now that there are so many new Trek shows in the works.

If you stretch the definition of "continuity," the Japanese Super Sentai and Kamen Rider franchises (which start over with a new series title, story, and cast each season) have annual theatrical movies for each season, and annual crossover movies between each consecutive two seasons' casts. And they've had occasional crossovers with other Toei franchises like Metal Heroes. But usually each season is its own separate reality and they only pretend to go together during the crossovers, and many of the movies aren't really consistent with the shows they're based on. But I'd say they count because they're part of the same overall franchise from the same creators, rather than a reboot or adaptation by someone else, so they're a continuous creative project even if the stories don't strictly agree. (The case could be made that SS/KR has explicitly established the existence of a multiverse containing various alternate versions of the heroes, and that the histories of the worlds can be rewritten or merged, so every series and movie within it can be presumed to be part of that same multiverse, with inconsistent movies just being alternate-reality versions of the shows.)
 
Doctor Who gets points for longevity, too, although it hasn't launched as many movies and spin-offs.

One TV movie, three canonical spinoff series, and one failed pilot (I don't count the unofficial Australian K-9 spinoff). But the only two theatrical feature films are out-of-continuity remakes of TV serials, made by a different company with a different cast, so they don't fit Damian's parameters.
 
One TV movie, three canonical spinoff series, and one failed pilot (I don't count the unofficial Australian K-9 spinoff). But the only two theatrical feature films are out-of-continuity remakes of TV serials, made by a different company with a different cast, so they don't fit Damian's parameters.

Yeah, I was thinking long running franchises with a single continuity. Star Wars is pretty long running and on screen has its own ongoing continuity. And their internal continuity is more consistent than Star Trek's. But Star Trek does beat it out if for no other reason it started earlier, and of course as you noted with the number of shows coming out I think Star Trek will continue to win that battle for longevity as long as Star Trek never goes full on reboot.

But I actually don't ever see Star Trek going full reboot. It's certainly not always consistent--as the arguments on Trek BBS (and plenty of other websites) can attest to. But no matter who the showrunners are, they've always tied their production to all that came before. I've had difficulty viewing Discovery as something other than a reboot---BUT the showrunners have said it is part of the same universe as the original series (and Enterprise that takes place before). With all the full on reboots you see these days it's kind of surprising Star Trek's been immune from that--and the one time they do something that seems like a reboot with the Abrams movies--they still use a story device that ties it to what came before essentially making it another sequel series.
 
Star Wars is pretty long running and on screen has its own ongoing continuity. And their internal continuity is more consistent than Star Trek's.

I wouldn't say that, because there are a number of Star Wars television productions that have been subsequently decanonized -- the Droids and Ewok cartoons, the live-action Ewok movies, the Clone Wars microseries. Whereas every Trek series and movie is still counted as part of the same overall whole, despite their inconsistencies.
 
I wouldn't say that, because there are a number of Star Wars television productions that have been subsequently decanonized -- the Droids and Ewok cartoons, the live-action Ewok movies, the Clone Wars microseries. Whereas every Trek series and movie is still counted as part of the same overall whole, despite their inconsistencies.


I didn't realize that. When it comes to Star Wars I've only really paid attention to the movies--but I thought anything on screen was part of the greater whole. My bad.

Another reason Star Trek is better :hugegrin:
 
Now it helped that TMP offered some in-universe explanations for its changes. They didn't just say 'let's pretend this is how the Enterprise always looked'. They acknowledged the change there.
That's an excellent point! TMP didn't bother to explain away the Klingons (who appear in a single scene), but did bother to explain the much more significant and visible Enterprise, so that movie's a pioneering example of how the franchise does offer in-universe explanations for visual differences. ;)
 
That's an excellent point! TMP didn't bother to explain away the Klingons (who appear in a single scene), but did bother to explain the much more significant and visible Enterprise, so that movie's a pioneering example of how the franchise does offer in-universe explanations for visual differences. ;)

Not really, because a single refit is not a convincing explanation for how every single piece of technology and clothing in the entire universe was simultaneously redesigned. It's just a cursory handwave that falls apart if you give it more than two seconds' thought. Like, why did the Klingons redesign their starships and uniforms at the exact same time Starfleet did? Why don't we see any older ships or technologies coexisting with the spanking-new ones?

In short, it wasn't an explanation, it was an excuse.
 
Why don't we see any older ships or technologies coexisting with the spanking-new ones?

I thought the Epsilon 9's operations center vaguely resembled an older style starship. Sort of like the TV series Enterprise with a touch up.

And I noticed their uniforms had different insignia's then the Enterprise's, like the original series (as far as I know I believe TMP was the last Star Trek production to feature a different insignia for a different crew).

Though now that I think of it on Enterprise their were different shoulder patches for different ships--I guess that would be a similar idea.
 
Not really, because a single refit is not a convincing explanation for how every single piece of technology and clothing in the entire universe was simultaneously redesigned. It's just a cursory handwave that falls apart if you give it more than two seconds' thought.

That is one of those cases where I just go with it. But my original point was unlike Roddenberry saying about the Klingons "Let's pretend this is how they always looked" they didn't do that with the Enterprise (however faulty the reasoning). In that case they wanted to acknowledge it indeed was different (partly I'm sure for the story--since Kirk had to be unfamiliar with the design).
 
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