Dilithium crystals for C-57-D saucer?

[larryman]

Would dilithium crystals be useful in a Forbidden Planet C-57-D hyperspace patrol saucer? The saucer is only atomic powered (probably fusion reaction), and uses no anti-matter fule. It's speed is 17-ly per year (aproximately equilivant to warp 3 or warp 4).

 

[Mister_Atoz]

yes

 

[Gepard]

 

[FalTorPan]

Dilithium is hokus-pokus. FTL is hokus-pokus. FTL-capable ships can use dilithium hokus-pokus or any other hokus-pokus.

 

[Christopher]

Would dilithium crystals be useful in a Forbidden Planet C-57-D hyperspace patrol saucer? The saucer is only atomic powered (probably fusion reaction), and uses no anti-matter fule. It's speed is 17-ly per year (aproximately equilivant to warp 3 or warp 4).

Uhhh... Yyyyeah... and why not throw in a flux capacitor and an interociter while you're at it? And reverse the polarity of the neutron flow in the oscillation overthruster.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Would dilithium crystals be useful in a Forbidden Planet C-57-D hyperspace patrol saucer? The saucer is only atomic powered (probably fusion reaction), and uses no anti-matter fule. It's speed is 17-ly per year (aproximately equilivant to warp 3 or warp 4).

Well, I'm not going to be a smart-ass like everyone else is being... but I'll give much the same answer.

The C-57D does not exist in the Trek universe, so no "trek magic technology" need exist in that world. Dilithium doesn't exist in reality, after all... at least as far as we know!

What is dilithium, in-fiction? Well, that's never been clearly established, either. But my personal favorite version is that, at a certain atomic weight, the periodic table basically falls back into the same pattern the "lower" levels follow... so, after you get to a certain very high atomic number, very unstable material, you find another realm of stable materials, making up a "second" period table within the first... with ELEMENTS called things like "dihydrogen" and "diplatinum" and yes, "dilithium." (that's DI... not "DIE"... a soft "I" sound)

These materials are very rare in nature, and behave "oddly." (Again, this is all speculative fiction, none of it is real!) In the case of dilithium, if you put a beam of strong energy through it (say, a very dense stream of gammas, like a matter/antimatter reaction would cause), it would generate a very powerful electromagnetic potential difference along the direction of the crystaline grain structure... and because of the nature of the higher-order element, it would be very resilient to this energy.

Basically, under this explanation, dilithium is what's used to convert the raw, unmanageable energy from the m/am reaction into useable electrical power.

Later on, with the TNG encyclopedia, a different explanation was created (something about antimatter not harming dilithium... but if dilithium is made from neutrons, protons and electrons, that's nonsense when viewed from a REAL physics standpoint... a positron will annihilate an electron regardless of what atomic structure it happens to be part of!)

So, I personally prefer the old-school explanation that dilithium is what turns the reaction into useable ENERGY which can drive shipboard systems.

(As a parallel, nuclear-powered vessels today aren't driven by the direct heat output of the nuclear reaction. Instead, that nuclear reaction turns water into steam, and that steam drives a turbine which converts that mechanical energy into electrical power. So... heat -> mechanical power -> electrical power. Dilithium, in "treknology," does something similar... but with one less step. "Radiation -> electrical power.")

Now... as for the C-57D... what you need to answer for yourself is this:

1) Does the "Forbidden Planet" universe have the same fictional "extra materials" that the Trek universe does? (There's some indication in TNG-era that it does, by the way... "krellide power cells" and so forth.)

2) Does the C-57D convert its nuclear power into useable energy through a similar process?

Of course, the reality is "it really doesn't matter, does it?"

 

[Christopher]

Later on, with the TNG encyclopedia, a different explanation was created (something about antimatter not harming dilithium... but if dilithium is made from neutrons, protons and electrons, that's nonsense when viewed from a REAL physics standpoint... a positron will annihilate an electron regardless of what atomic structure it happens to be part of!)

Not at all. Matter is mostly empty space. The explanation Sternbach and Okuda devised for the TNG Technical Manual is that the dilithium diallosilicate heptoferranide crystal's atomic lattice is configured in such a way that, when subjected to a powerful magnetic field, it functions as a series of nanoscale magnetic bottles, confining individual antiprotons (or antideuterons) in the empty spaces within the crystal lattice, so that they never actually come into contact with the atoms of the crystal.

So, I personally prefer the old-school explanation that dilithium is what turns the reaction into useable ENERGY which can drive shipboard systems.

That's still the explanation. The crystal structure not only confines and thereby concentrates the annihilation reaction, but focuses the results into a usable "warp plasma" which carries the energy to the warp coils. (Actually the result of proton-antiproton annihilations would be a stream of pions and gamma rays, but pions quickly decay into muons and neutrinos.)

So even if we pretended Forbidden Planet could somehow be in the Trekverse, there'd be no point in using dilithium in a fission or fusion reactor.

 

[Ronald Held]

Why would anyone think to mix the Tech of Forbidden planet universe with the Trek one?

 

[Plecostomus]

Some people like to mix and match elements from sci fi. There are some who like to think that FP took place in the Star Trek universe somehow.

*shrug*

 

[Christopher]

Forbidden Planet is generally considered the most direct antecedent of ST, with a lot of conceptual and stylistic similarities. So I suppose some might want to pretend they're in the same reality.

 

[larryman]

Later on, with the TNG encyclopedia, a different explanation was created (something about antimatter not harming dilithium... but if dilithium is made from neutrons, protons and electrons, that's nonsense when viewed from a REAL physics standpoint... a positron will annihilate an electron regardless of what atomic structure it happens to be part of!)

Not at all. Matter is mostly empty space. The explanation Sternbach and Okuda devised for the TNG Technical Manual is that the dilithium diallosilicate heptoferranide crystal's atomic lattice is configured in such a way that, when subjected to a powerful magnetic field, it functions as a series of nanoscale magnetic bottles, confining individual antiprotons (or antideuterons) in the empty spaces within the crystal lattice, so that they never actually come into contact with the atoms of the crystal.

So, I personally prefer the old-school explanation that dilithium is what turns the reaction into useable ENERGY which can drive shipboard systems.

That's still the explanation. The crystal structure not only confines and thereby concentrates the annihilation reaction, but focuses the results into a usable "warp plasma" which carries the energy to the warp coils. (Actually the result of proton-antiproton annihilations would be a stream of pions and gamma rays, but pions quickly decay into muons and neutrinos.)

So even if we pretended Forbidden Planet could somehow be in the Trekverse, there'd be no point in using dilithium in a fission or fusion reactor.

There must be additional properties associated with dilithium crystals. The plasma focusing and conversion to electrical power (described above) do not explain their use to open a dimensional portal by Lazarus' saucer ship in "The Alternative Factor" TOS episode.

 

[Christopher]

Nothing explains "The Alternative Factor." It directly contradicts the rest of Trek canon with regards to both dilithium and antimatter. TOS routinely depicted dilithium as a means of channeling power (as early as "Mudd's Women," and later in episodes like "Elaan of Troyius"), and eventually established that ship's power was generated by a matter/antimatter reaction. TAF contradicts that by claiming that dilithium is itself the power source. It also depicts matter and antimatter in a totally nonsensical way, claiming that any reaction between identical matter and antimatter particles will destroy the entire universe, but that the only way for matter and antimatter to be "identical" is if they're in the form of the same individual. Matter Kirk can exist in the antimatter universe and touch antimatter Lazarus and his devices without danger; only matter Lazarus and antimatter Lazarus coming into contact will bring about an explosion. Which makes absolutely no sense, no way, nohow.

Also, the episode blatantly contradicts itself; sometimes the switch of Lazari is depicted as something that happens at the portal on the planet surface and causes universal chaos, while at other times it's depicted as happening aboard ship without anyone noticing.

Given that the episode contradicts all the rest of canonical Trek, and given that nothing from the episode has ever been referenced again in any onscreen Trek production or even any of the novels (the only followup I'm aware of is one short story in the Strange New Worlds anthology series), and given that it's the stupidest, most incoherent episode in the whole series (easily surpassing Spock's Brain), I think it's necessary -- and preferable -- to treat it as an apocryphal account.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Nothing explains "The Alternative Factor." It directly contradicts the rest of Trek canon with regards to both dilithium and antimatter. TOS routinely depicted dilithium as a means of channeling power (as early as "Mudd's Women," and later in episodes like "Elaan of Troyius"), and eventually established that ship's power was generated by a matter/antimatter reaction. TAF contradicts that by claiming that dilithium is itself the power source. It also depicts matter and antimatter in a totally nonsensical way, claiming that any reaction between identical matter and antimatter particles will destroy the entire universe, but that the only way for matter and antimatter to be "identical" is if they're in the form of the same individual. Matter Kirk can exist in the antimatter universe and touch antimatter Lazarus and his devices without danger; only matter Lazarus and antimatter Lazarus coming into contact will bring about an explosion. Which makes absolutely no sense, no way, nohow.

Also, the episode blatantly contradicts itself; sometimes the switch of Lazari is depicted as something that happens at the portal on the planet surface and causes universal chaos, while at other times it's depicted as happening aboard ship without anyone noticing.

Given that the episode contradicts all the rest of canonical Trek, and given that nothing from the episode has ever been referenced again in any onscreen Trek production or even any of the novels (the only followup I'm aware of is one short story in the Strange New Worlds anthology series), and given that it's the stupidest, most incoherent episode in the whole series (easily surpassing Spock's Brain), I think it's necessary -- and preferable -- to treat it as an apocryphal account.

As much as I hate the idea of tossing out episodes... yeah, I tend to agree.

"Spock's Brain" could be retold in a different way and possibly have it make some form of sense. It wasn't so much that the root concept of the story was flawed as it was the EXECUTION therein.

But I'm at a loss as to how you could "retell" "The Alternative Factor" and have it work. There's not even a kernel of "goodness" in there I can imagine being kept to save the story. No matter how many times the same actor falls off of a rock and screams.

The one bit from that episode which I DID like was the appearance of the "cut" Dilithium crystals, though (which was seen again during the series, at least once, as I recall). That appearance is a key element of what made people conclude that they were "radiation to electrical power" converters... the little "terminal knobs" on either end of the cut crystal.

Could "TAF's" use of the crystals make sense? Well, the rest of the story is garbage, but I can live with that element, honestly. They were described as the "power source," but if you assume the "power conversion" thing, that isn't out of line, is it? The ship may generate all the radiation it can through M/AM annihilation, but that's not usable POWER. So, the source of the "usable" power is still the crystal (which is, in turn, converting UNUSABLE power).

And the idea that the "timeship" ended up accidentally crossing into an antimatter universe would sort of derive from this as well. Maybe the source of antimatter was some sort of space/time rift that the ship would create... exchanging matter for matching antimatter from "the other side" and channeling the annihilation products through the crystals to power the "rift" generator... making it, essentially, self-powering.

That stuff I can deal with.

Of course, the problem is that the moment that you shift to the other side, or the other side's version shifts to your side... you'd wipe yourself out (along with about half of the surface of whatever planet you were on). End of episode!

So, to make the story work... well, there's no way to make it work, is there?

Maybe in the "real" Trek universe, the enterprise just comes across a wiped out planet and can't find any evidence of what destroyed the planet except that it seems to be an antimatter explosion. End credits, fly off... no Lazarus!

 

[larryman]

Ok. If the dilithium crystals are not a power 'source'... then when Scotty says "the dilithium crystals are drained" - he means what? What are they 'drained' of, that can be replaced by a re-amplifying process?

 

[Christopher]

Scotty only said that in "The Alternative Factor." It's already been stated upthread that TAF, and TAF alone, treats dilithium as a power source, contradicting the rest of Trek canon. So within the context of that episode, Scotty means exactly what it sounds like he means -- but that episode doesn't track with the rest of Trek canon, so it's best to disregard it.

 

[Ronald Held]

Can anyone stretch the Trek science in TAF as a result of the interface corridor?

 

[larryman]

Can anyone stretch the Trek science in TAF as a result of the interface corridor?

The interface corridor should be reduced from a long corridor experience, to a short doorway experience - like that of the time portal in the library of "All Our Yesterdays" TOS episode. And used to access 'any' other universe - of the infinite number available. Not just the anti-matter, or the mirror universes. And the access should be by using 'the re-chargable' dilithium crystals - as done in "The Alternative Factor" episode. Possibly interacting the crystal's 'energies' (which I would define as extending into hyper-dimensions) with the transporter function - by installing multiple dilithium crystals in the walls of the transporter platform. Energize crystals to glowing red, then energize the transporter. The landing party is then transported to another universe.

Christopher is correct, that TAF is the only TOS episode which presents dilithium crystals as possessing some intrinsic power of their own, which can be depleted and can be re-charged via a re-amplifying process. And TAF is the only episode in which the crystals are involved in a bridging of seperate universes. This 'mysterious' property of the crystals needs to be further exploited. Otherwise, they serve only as glorified fuel-valves for the ships. Crystals have long been an object of mystery and magic in sci-fi. For that reason, I would include the 'mysterious' diluthium crystals in a C-57-D hyperspace saucer (in some function) - to re-open the mystery door, in another universe.

"The Alternative Factor" episode is laughable in it's treatment of matter/anti-matter contacts, and it's overall plot premise. But it is (and allways will be) TOS canon. Therefore, any concept in it is valid to build apon. I would hope someone would build apon the re-chargable 'mysterious' dilithium crystals, and their use to access other universes - without need to replicate an accidental transporter/ion-storm interaction, or finding a spatial interface region in Tholian space. In visiting other universes, I would want a method more controlled. A method that provides selection of: which universe, which location within that universe, and which moment of that universe's timeline. The TAF dilithium crystals can provide that interdimensional doorway.

 

[Christopher]

"The Alternative Factor" episode is laughable in it's treatment of matter/anti-matter contacts, and it's overall plot premise. But it is (and allways will be) TOS canon. Therefore, any concept in it is valid to build apon.

Canon is mutable. The creators of a canon sometimes do ignore elements of past episodes that didn't work out. Berman and Braga have explicitly said that the VGR episode "Threshold" never happened. Roddenberry asked people to pretend that the Klingons had always looked the way they did in TMP. Happy Days retconned Richie's older brother completely out of existence. Alien Nation had a major character suffering from a dread disease in the pilot and perfectly healthy in episode two. An early Batman: TAS episode had Alfred claiming he knew nothing of children, but it was later established that he'd raised Bruce Wayne from infancy and Dick Grayson from age 9. Even the creators of a canon ignore parts of it sometimes, so the rest of us should be free to ignore them too.

 

[Timo]

Christopher is correct, that TAF is the only TOS episode which presents dilithium crystals as possessing some intrinsic power of their own, which can be depleted and can be re-charged via a re-amplifying process. And TAF is the only episode in which the crystals are involved in a bridging of seperate universes. This 'mysterious' property of the crystals needs to be further exploited. Otherwise, they serve only as glorified fuel-valves for the ships.

I agre with Cary - they could still be glorified valves in "TAF". It's just that they cease to work as valves when they are struck with "universe hiccup waves", perhaps because their crystalline structure gets all disordered. One then needs to take them out of the warp engine, insert them in the repairing machine that has slots for four crystal matrices at a time, and treat them until they are all well-ordered again, at which point they can again be inserted into antimatter-powered machines - be they warp engines or universe-crossing-tunnel-openers.

As for the use of "antimatter" in "TAF", it's possible that Spock is speaking figuratively. The sane Lazarus need not be built of positrons and antiprotons. It will suffice that he is the exact opposite of the insane one in some manner of pseudo-physics that is coarsely analogous to the relationship between electrons and positrons.

When Kirk tries to use the expression "antimatter" with the sane Lazarus, apparently to describe the insane one to him, the sane Lazarus ponders a little, then responds with the cryptic "Here, yes". Not enough proof IMHO that they are literally talking about positrons and antiprotons. Not when any other explanation would be preferable, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

As for the use of "antimatter" in "TAF", it's possible that Spock is speaking figuratively.

Which would be badly out of character for him. Also it doesn't fit the dialogue. His line was: "Two parallel universes -- project this -- one positive, the other negative... or, more specifically, one matter... the other antimatter." I doubt he'd say "specifically" if he was merely using a rough analogy.