Different opinions make the world go round

[commodore64]

Unlike the other forums at the TrekBBS, sometimes I feel the ENT forum is unfriendly to different opinions. I like Trip, despite being accused otherwise, and yet when I critique him people get angry. I think season 4 needed some work, and yet when I critique that people get angry. Some people didn't like Enterprise, critiquing it, and people got angry. If TATV is enjoyed, people get angry. These are just a few examples.

Isn't it better just to assume a difference of opinion and not take it as a personal afront? Discussing it respectfully is important.

Okay, so Trip isn't m favorite character. Big whoop? No one has killed your pet or dissed your grandma. Someone doesn't like Enterprise. I don't care. I like it. I think some of their critiques are good and worth reading. Ones I disagree with, I indicate why and move on.

So ... what's the deal? Do you agree that the ENT forum should welcome all opinions and people be treated respectfully? Is it just my perception?

 

[Mach5]

^ Let me be the first to support your right to a different opinion. Arguing with you tends to be fun, but I also think that everybody has a right to get angry at other peoples opinions (angry, but by no means uncivil). When we argue about stuff like "which character has more charisma," "which character is better looking," "Who should have gotten romantically involved with whom," "Is ANIS a good ep, or a bad one," that's all OK by me, like it, don't like it, have it your way. But I believe TATV is an exception, because it offended so many people, gotten them furious, disappointed, even hurt (judging by many post I've read all over the net, not just here), and every time someone states his/hers fondness of it, it's like adding salt on the wound.

 

[commodore64]

I've been offended by episodes, and yet people like them. Harbinger for example. I don't think their enjoyment is a personal attack. Of course, I think they're crazy for liking the episode, but it's their opinion. People speak of their fondness for it, and really enjoyed parts I absolutely hated like the Reed/Hayes fight. But, who cares? I read or don't read, depending on who and what they have to say.

I'm afraid if folks continue to get dissed this forum will be really boring. Dissenting opinions, errr ... imo, makes it interesting.

And shouldn't at least Trekkies/Trekkers follow IDIC?

 

[JNG]

Isn't it better just to assume a difference of opinion and not take it as a personal afront? Discussing it respectfully is important.

Not really. Though it's extraordinarily common on the intarwebs, people trying to make a point tend to undermine themselves by raving and piling on invective. Let them, and the mods will handle it if it gets totally out of hand. You get to type the same thing either way.

 

[gblews]

Unlike the other forums at the TrekBBS, sometimes I feel the ENT forum is unfriendly to different opinions. I like Trip, despite being accused otherwise, and yet when I critique him people get angry. I think season 4 needed some work, and yet when I critique that people get angry. Some people didn't like Enterprise, critiquing it, and people got angry. If TATV is enjoyed, people get angry. These are just a few examples.

Isn't it better just to assume a difference of opinion and not take it as a personal afront? Discussing it respectfully is important.

Okay, so Trip isn't m favorite character. Big whoop? No one has killed your pet or dissed your grandma. Someone doesn't like Enterprise. I don't care. I like it. I think some of their critiques are good and worth reading. Ones I disagree with, I indicate why and move on.

Gotta be honest with you here, I generally agree with the sentiment exressed in your thread title, but your initial post, to me, seems to be railing against opinions that disagree with yours.

There are some people here whose opinion is that you don't like Trip. But that's their opinion. They are entitled to disagree with your assertion that you do like the character. There are people who still strongly dislike TaTV. They have a right to express that opinion, even though it differs from yours. There are people here who think Scott was woefully inadequate as Archer. No one, you included, should take that as a personal afront.

My take on it is this; 'everyone's opinion is as worthy of being heard as mine'. But don't expect that everyone is going to agree with you and don't expect that the ones who don't agree are not going to express that disagreement forcefully. And don't get so offended when confronted by a strongly worded opinion which may disagree with yours.

 

[rhodeschroma]

Unlike the other forums at the TrekBBS, sometimes I feel the ENT forum is unfriendly to different opinions.

So ... what's the deal? Do you agree that the ENT forum should welcome all opinions and people be treated respectfully? Is it just my perception?

I am very new to the Enterprise forums and have been reading much more than I post to try and get a feel for everything. I do 100% agree that we are all entitled to our own opinions, as long as we respect each other's viewpoints and do not disparage someone for having a differing point of view. In other words, I (and I feel many/most) also try to give the courtesy I expect to receive in return even if someone is in complete opposition to what I may believe. Unfortunately, the anonymity of the net sometimes brings out the worst in people.

With that being said - I do understand where some of the forum posts can come across as unfriendly when taken individually. Enterprise, to me, has been such a source of debate, and has from the beginning seemed to be such a dividing force in the Star Trek community that you almost have to have a bit of armor in place if you express certain opinions about the show. I, for instance, am very much a fan and have been since the initial airing. I think I am more forgiving than others on issues of canon, but I understand how this is important to long-time viewers of the franchise. It doesn't offend me when someone says that they felt Captain Archer was an inept captain, however I disagree if you can't elaborate as to why or the possible sources for that perception coming across onscreen (ie. - do you believe it's all in the writing, a bad character profile to begin with, or a bad actor playing the part (not my opinion.)) I know full well ENT had it's share of dog episodes, it wasn't perfect, and it doesn't bug me when they're pointed out intelligently.

There are some issues, however, that have been tread and retread to death, that touching on them again in an manner that is insensitive to the general ENT community will automatically cause defenses to be raised. Many of these topics have already been mentioned - I'm sure I don't need to elaborate.

I think you have to be a strong personality to put forth the opinion that you prefer Enterprise over other iterations of ST. There's so much ire from all around that I know I feel boxed in sometimes by the "Enterprise was all a holoprogram" comments, to the flat out "it sucked", etc. etc. People just want to spit venom at the show and, from the other side, I'm know that it makes those who enjoy it feel quite disrespected.

All in all, while there are some exceptions to the rule - where people actually want to have an intelligent conversation about a particular topic that may be sensitive - more times than not it's just someone poking the fork in one more time with nothing new to add.

 

[commodore64]

Gotta be honest with you here, I generally agree with the sentiment exressed in your thread title, but your initial post, to me, seems to be railing against opinions that disagree with yours.

That wasn't my intention. I can only come from my viewpoint you know?

My take on it is this; 'everyone's opinion is as worthy of being heard as mine'. But don't expect that everyone is going to agree with you. (snip)

I'm with ya. I think there are two ways to respond, though.

1) I disagree. Here's what I think.

2) You are so wrong. I mean, how can you possibly think that?!

We see both kinds here and #2 is kinda the issue.

 

[gblews]

Gotta be honest with you here, I generally agree with the sentiment expressed in your thread title, but your initial post, to me, seems to be railing against opinions that disagree with yours.

That wasn't my intention. I can only come from my viewpoint you know?

I won't argue your intent, but by only using personal instances where people disagreed with your opinions it gives the impression that you're seeing the whole issue from your viewpoint, like you're not arguing everyone's right to free expression, but you're arguing your right to free expression. What I'm saying is that in a discussion of this topic, we need all the objectivity we can get.

2) You are so wrong. I mean, how can you possibly think that?!

We see both kinds here and #2 is kinda the issue.

Well, if the poster's opinion is that you're 'so wrong' and they can't understand how you see it that way, whats the problem?

I agree that its more interesting when people elaborate on why they think you're wrong, but whats wrong with a person just stating that you're wrong, 'and I don't know why', but you're wrong? To me it is as valid a point as some of the 4 and 5 paragraph analysis I sometimes see. To me, this goes back to everyone having the right to express their opinion.

If you get this response, simply ask them why they think you're wrong. They'll either respond and you can follow up or they won't and you just move on. I don't see it as a big deal.

BTW, I thought the issue was people getting slammed for expressing their opinions.

 

[Mach5]

1) I disagree. Here's what I think.

2) You are so wrong. I mean, how can you possibly think that?!

We see both kinds here and #2 is kinda the issue.

Hmmm, but if a person feels passionately about a certain topic or issue, #2 is to be expected. "You are so wrong" is not an insult, if it's followed by a rational explanation of "why" the disagreeing party is (supposedly) wrong.
Commodore, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that you feel alone in some of your opinions, and that it's starting to get to you. And IMO you do make an impression that you seriously dislike Tucker (you've made a number of comments which suggest that), but I don't see any crime in that. Liking someone just because others do is not exactly mandatory, I mean, you watch ENT for your own enjoyment, and no one else's, right?

 

[SFRabid]

I think that Enterprise fans that go to forums have learned to be gun shy. The official ST forums were the worst. Just getting on the ENT forum and saying that you like the show always resulted in the same group jumping on your case, telling you that you are stupid if you like "the worst show in ST history." Dealing with that tends to make you touchy. Some of that bunch have showed up here a few times just to stir things up. Luckily this place is much better moderated and much more civil.

You are welcome to have your opinion. Just understand that sometimes it might cause some of us to have flashbacks to the days when Enterprise fans were kicked around.

Now it seems to be Voyager that has taking that roll. Enterprise is holding up well over time.

 

[commodore64]

^ Yes, the ST areas seems to be a wasteland.

Hmmm, but if a person feels passionately about a certain topic or issue, #2 is to be expected. "You are so wrong" is not an insult, if it's followed by a rational explanation of "why" the disagreeing party is (supposedly) wrong. Commodore, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that you feel alone in some of your opinions, and that it's starting to get to you. And IMO you do make an impression that you seriously dislike Tucker (you've made a number of comments which suggest that), but I don't see any crime in that. Liking someone just because others do is not exactly mandatory, I mean, you watch ENT for your own enjoyment, and no one else's, right?

No, I don't feel alone on my opinions, although I know a lot of folks aren't here to post their similar opinions any more. And I feel when people post "unpopular" opinions people get the hammer (not a mod hammer), they leave. Sometimes it feels a little like chum in an area full of sharks. Then you're stuck with a bunch of people who agree with you, or stubborn people like me.

And to gblews, here's the deal -- what would accepting disagreements hurt? Why go to the trouble of posting eye roll icons and lots of exclamations? Why can't the discussions be, I don't know, cordial?

I think the forum doesn't embrace different opinions. I went a conference recently about social media and one woman who helped start one of the forums (that helped ultimately create this board) explained the the best boards are full of differring opinions and that her job as mod is to protect those who "disagree." BTW, I think HR is doing a good job -- and thank you.

On Tucker, I don't like being told what I feel. I know what I feel, and I guess you'll just have to take my word. You can have your opinion about my opinion, but why bother telling me over and over how I feel (when I don't)? And even if I did hate Tucker, why should it matter? I'll use your statement, you indicated it wasn't cool to critique Trip. Who cares? I see people go after Archer and sigh as well as attempt to explain why I like him, what I think the writers were doing, etc.

Critiquing Tucker, ENT, liking TATV and a bevy of other things shouldn't be a crime. And discussion on this board would be awesome if respectful. I think it'd really help. And shouldn't we strive for it? I think it'd welcome new people. I feel like I keep seeing the same individuals with few exceptions.

I'm no mod, but I like new blood and would like to encourage people to post. This is just a poster to poster comment and observation.

 

[gblews]

And to gblews, here's the deal -- what would accepting disagreements hurt? Why go to the trouble of posting eye roll icons and lots of exclamations? Why can't the discussions be, I don't know, cordial?

Because not everyone shares your idea of what "cordial" is. I think what could use some acceptance, is that people are not all the same and some see the world entirely differently than you (general "you") do. That is part of what makes life (and this board) interesting.

I think the forum doesn't embrace different opinions.

Why do you need your opinons "embraced"? To me, this type of thinking is part of the whole politically correct movement. That is, people have to make nice-nice and if they don't, if they bluntly tell you that they don't think you know what you're talking about, they're personally attacking you. You can have a discussion where people are being direct and it not be a "hurtful personal attack". The internet, even this board, is not for the thin skinned.

Critiquing Tucker, ENT, liking TATV and a bevy of other things shouldn't be a crime.

Why do you perceive it being treated as a crime? Do you mean because Tucker is a very popular character and many people disagree with your critique? Because TaTV is a very unpopular episode around here? Again, it is all nothing but opinions.

I feel like I keep seeing the same individuals with few exceptions. I'm no mod, but I like new blood and would like to encourage people to post. This is just a poster to poster comment and observation.

Really? On the first page of this very thread in the first 11 posts, at least two are from a Liutenant Commander and an Ensign. Most of the threads starters on the first page of the forum today, in fact almost all, have a rank of no higher than Fleet Captain. That sounds like quite a few new faces around here, to me.

Perhaps your perception is that many people who happened to find themselves residing on the same side of arguments as you, have left.

In the last few years many former regulars have departed or are on hiatus, but I disagree if you're implying most left because they felt "attacked". Same with new faces. Take a good look around. How many of these posters were here 3 years ago, 2 years, even one year ago. In fact, it has amazed me seeing how the forum has been pretty much taken over by new posters. Its refreshing, even if it does sometimes lead to the same stuff being rehashed, but at least the takes are from different eyes and minds.

 

[Mach5]

I think the forum doesn't embrace different opinions.

Unorthodox opinions are never easily embraced. I personally didn't notice much hostility here, and IMO heated arguments don't qualify as hostile. Heated discussions are fun when you discuss fictional stuff like Star Trek, and the day people start agreeing on everything on these boards, is the day I stop reading them.

On Tucker, I don't like being told what I feel.

I never did that.

And even if I did hate Tucker, why should it matter?

Isn't that exactly what I said?

Critiquing Tucker, ENT, liking TATV and a bevy of other things shouldn't be a crime.

Critiquing Tucker &/or ENT - no, but TATV? Hmmmm, gray area...

 

[ALF]

What amazes me about the ENT forum is the never ending stream of people that post here just to let us know that they hated ENT with all their might. Or simply to quip that ENT was the lame duck of the Trek franchise.

Thanks. Thanks for the input.

PS. And I still feel, 4 years after the fact, there should be an ongoing pinned thread dedicated to TATV (These Are The Voyages, Enterprise's bastard series finale) because it's notoriety will never go away! There are usually no less than 2 discussions on the ENT page.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

You knew I'd toss in my .02 sooner or later, didn't you?

Isn't it better just to assume a difference of opinion and not take it as a personal afront? Discussing it respectfully is important.

Yes, this would be great. But when folks are strongly emotionally invested in their opinions, it's more of a challenge to express those opinions objectively (and sometimes respectfully). Also, when an element of the show that you love is dissed by another poster, you might feel disrespected yourself, even though you are not the actual target.

"Taking it as a personal affront," though, is not an automatic; it's up to you whether you feel bent out of shape because other people disagree with you about a TV show. Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make your feel inferior without your permission."

Do you agree that the ENT forum should welcome all opinions and people be treated respectfully?

Certainly. Discussion, by definition, is the examination of a subject through the interchange of opinions. Without different opinions, there would be no discussion.

The TrekBBS Rules (which you have all read, of course ) recommends an article written for the Alt.StarTrek.Creative newsgroup, "The Mannerly Art of Disagreement." It's a wonderful little primer on how to debate effectively, and without descending into personal attack.

But I believe TATV is an exception...

No.

People have a right to discuss TATV as much as any other aspect of Enterprise. Any opinion, positive or negative, is fine, as long as you don't give offense to the people expressing opposing points of view.

Personal opinion is subjective; there is no "cool" or "uncool" to it. So there's really no point in trying to somehow "win" a discussion, whether by bullying, or repeating yourself ad nauseum, or otherwise acting as if your opinion is the only correct one. Everyone's opinion is correct for them. Sometimes it's better to agree to disagree, and move on, rather than beating a dead horse to death.

I do 100% agree that we are all entitled to our own opinions, as long as we respect each other's viewpoints and do not disparage someone for having a differing point of view.

Well said. And welcome to the forum.

I agree that its more interesting when people elaborate on why they think you're wrong, but whats wrong with a person just stating that you're wrong, 'and I don't know why', but you're wrong?

The concern goes back to this being a discussion board. "I love this!/"I hate it!" or "I'm right"/"You're wrong" is not discussion. it is two brick walls banging pointlessly against each other. You need to back up what you say in order to move discussion forward.

To me, this type of thinking is part of the whole politically correct movement. That is, people have to make nice-nice and if they don't, if they bluntly tell you that they don't think you know what you're talking about, they're personally attacking you.

Basic courtesy toward fellow posters may not be necessary for you, but it is a requirement of this board. (Except for TNZ, and even they have certain rules in there.) I don't care if it's the Internet; it is a public place, and people must be civil here in order for the place to function. Directness about a post is fine, but if you take aim at a poster, I will come down on you.

On that happy note...discuss away.

 

[commodore64]

"Taking it as a personal affront," though, is not an automatic; it's up to you whether you feel bent out of shape because other people disagree with you about a TV show. Eleanor Roosevelt said "No one can make your feel inferior without your permission."

First, thanks for stopping by! And I agree with you.

Cosby, you know, I really like hearing what people didn't like about Enterprise. I think we should welcome them as well.

Gblews, well, you've been looking at my ugly mug for what -- five years? I feel like folks have left, but not many new people have replaced them, with the exception of Mach5. I fear we scare them away with our strong, unfriendly rhetoric.

 

[gblews]

I agree that its more interesting when people elaborate on why they think you're wrong, but whats wrong with a person just stating that you're wrong, 'and I don't know why', but you're wrong?

The concern goes back to this being a discussion board. "I love this!/"I hate it!" or "I'm right"/"You're wrong" is not discussion. it is two brick walls banging pointlessly against each other.

That only happens when a person continues to state over and over, 'you're wrong' without backing it up. That should not happen.

But then we've all seen the most complex and intricate discussions turn out to be nothing more than brick walls being banged together.

To me, this type of thinking is part of the whole politically correct movement. That is, people have to make nice-nice and if they don't, if they bluntly tell you that they don't think you know what you're talking about, they're personally attacking you.

Basic courtesy toward fellow posters may not be necessary for you, but it is a requirement of this board.

Yes. I know. True enough its not really necessary for me, I still post on Usenet, but I do understand what basic courtesy is.

Directness about a post is fine,

But here is the problem, I think. And this is where the political correctness comes through; some people perceive directness as a personal attack. That is, if you're not couching everything you say, especially while disagreeing, in touchy feely, 'I love and respect you and everything you say', language, you're not respecting them. You're not embracing their opinion and making them feel valued.

That to me, is an unecessary requirement in a discussion. But just because I don't engage in it, does not mean I don't have respect for the opinions of others. It goes without saying.

They're just opinions regardless of how forcefully stated they are and they don't (or shouldn't be allowed to), have the power to wound.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

But then we've all seen the most complex and intricate discussions turn out to be nothing more than brick walls being banged together.

Not necessarily. I've seen discussion of two polarized viewpoints that is quite compelling, even though I know nobody's gonna change their mind about their POV. I learn a lot from threads like that.

Basic courtesy toward fellow posters may not be necessary for you, but it is a requirement of this board.

Yes. I know. True enough its not really necessary for me, I still post on Usenet, but I do understand what basic courtesy is.

Alas, some folks appear they could use a refresher course now and again. Civility is vital to society--it used to prevent wars in the days of yore. Of course, that's when people talked to each other face to face, with weapons at easy reach.

Directness about a post is fine,

But here is the problem, I think. And this is where the political correctness comes through; some people perceive directness as a personal attack. That is, if you're not couching everything you say, especially while disagreeing, in touchy feely, 'I love and respect you and everything you say', language, you're not respecting them.

If I drop-kicked every poster who vented their spleen about this or that regarding Enterprise, there'd be hardly anyone left.

Folks don't necessarily need touchy-feely, though; that might be swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.

They're just opinions regardless of how forcefully stated they are and they don't (or shouldn't be allowed to), have the power to wound.

Different people have different tolerance levels for the kind of highly charged, emotionally stated opposing views that crop up here. commie has a point: the relentlessness of some posters, and their lack of tolerance for opposing views, can give this place an unfriendly atmosphere that makes it less than inviting to old and new posters alike.

The idea is to be respectful of everyone's opinions--newbies and veterans, sensitive and thick-skinned, pro and con.

 

[pookha]

Unlike the other forums at the TrekBBS, sometimes I feel the ENT forum is unfriendly to different opinions. I like Trip, despite being accused otherwise, and yet when I critique him people get angry.

sometimes critcism was made not only at a character but at the people who liked the character.

not all the time but it has happened.


frankly i wonder about why there should be thread like this in the forum.
we should be discussing characters ,stories ect and not why posters feel the way they do about this.

 

[Mach5]

But I believe TATV is an exception...

No.

Wow, what a nice example of respecting an opinion, take it out of context and slap a plain and simple "NO" to it. I'll never get the people who like TATV, but I'll never try to dispute their right to like it. It's a TV show for god's sake...